So. I had to take a mini break from the blog and no not because of the Kola Boof comments just simply to get some work done. In fact though many of you seemed surprised by the candor of the conversation. I was not. Black women who date IR but would never have a white man's child? Not surprising to me either. I've heard it before from more than a few black women. Iactually thought it was kind of common. Maybe were all just getting hung up on some misconceptions and stereotypes. When I lived in a college dorm my building had a few very attractive single black girls. Being who I am. I spent an inordinate amount of time flirting and hitting on them much to the chagrin of some white girls. And they were not shy about flirting back and dropping compliments about my blond hair blue eyes and how they thought I was. The thing was though even though we had fun with all this they made it clear they would never date me. Why not you may ask? Well because they didn't really want to date a white man. White guys are notoriously accused of being interested in black girls for sex only. Would anyone believe the opposite is sometimes true? I've also come across black girls that were very interested in going out with me but as they made abundantly clear not for anything serious. They were attracted to white guys but like the girls from my dorm they would rather not see a white guy seriously. Many people point to Asian women as the queens of interracial relationships but that's not always true either. There are plenty of Asian women who don't interracially date. An ex roommate of mine tried to hook me up with someone from her group of girlfriends; that group being a large assortment of intelligent and attractive Asian gals. Nearly everyone informed her they wouldn't date a white guy and several said the big reason they wouldn't date me is because my eyebrows are too blond!!!What's the point of all this? The point is we get to interested in stock scenarios and stereotypes and we forget people are complicated and race relations even more so. Even in IR circles things are not as they seem and motives are not cut and dry. White men and black women and people in general still have allot of racial hangups and preferences that don't fit into the comfortable images we have in our minds. If someone is turned off simply because of race you better off not dating them anyway. If your not comfortable in taking things to the next level with someone becuase of a racial issue? Do them a favor if you love that somebody let them go. You are right there are a lot of misconceptions and stereotypes. I can surely believe that there are some black women who will want to go after white men purely for sex just to see if stereotypes are true. I know this is strange but as a teen growing up I was always told white people are easy and freaky in bed. They even do oral sex and self gratification which for some reason at that time was considered gross. They tie up people and do all kinds of sexual things black people won't do. I grew up believing that. I am sure like white men who grew up with sexual stereotypes of black women that there are black women out there just as curious to know what it is like to be with white men. I have known black women to purposely seek out white men for the sole purpose of getting pregnant by them so they could have "pretty babys". My cousin did that two of her four kids are biracial and she is quick to point out their light skin and "bright eyes". It is kind of scary considered her youngest two have two black parents and she doesn't seem quite as excited about how they look. I see all the time black woman would find white men attractive but not date them. I have coworkers like that they will oooohhhh and aahhhh over David Beckham and Justin Timberlake but would never ever date a white man in real life. They believe they are meant to be with black men. I think many times black women are told it is bad to date outside your race. You are a traitor and you are some how letting down all the black people out there. There is also family pressure. I remember when I was in high school I "dated" white guys but obviously nothing serious. By the time I got to college. I had gotten into a "serious" relationship with a white guy and my mother and father started to get concerned. My mother pulled me aside and told me if I wanted a white guy that bad marry a black guy and have an affair with a white guy. I think Asians do get a pass on dating IR a bit more than blacks do. It isn't as political with them and no one bats an eye when they see an Asian woman and white man together. Their biggest stereotype and I am guilty of this myself if I see a older white man with a younger Asian woman who appears to be recently from another country. I think "mail order bride". Also growing up in a predominantly white area. I find that whites are more accepting of Asian and white relationships. At my high school I created controversy by going to prom with a white guy. No one said a thing to the Asian girl and guy that went to prom together. It didn't seem to be as big of a deal. Dating in general is complicated throw IR into the scenario things get a little bit trickier. But to be honest when I am with my husband we are not always thinking about race. I don't refer to him as "my white husband" and he doesn't refer to me as his "black wife". I don't go home and ask him how was it to be white on any given day and he doesn't ask me about how hard is it being black. I like this post. My roommate and I had been talking about it; it was at the end of the semester and it was warm so a bunch of guys were throwing around a football. And I told her that those were the types of guys that I wanted. She told me frankly good luck because those types of guys don't date black girls or if they would they would go for someone fairer like her (she's mixed Puerto Rican and Jamaican). But then she said I might have a chance because of the fact that I grew up in RI and of the way I speak and dress. I remember freshman year the white guys who approached me were the "down" ones who hung out with a group of black guys. But. I mean. I don't date someone because of skin color... I wouldn't date a "down" black guy so why a white one?But yeah there are alot of stereotypes; preppy guys don't date black girls and so forth. But you know what.. don't believe in them because obviously not everybody subscribes to them. I get surprised by people everyday. Like last night. I hung out with a friend and I met his roommate who's name is Teddy and he's fair-skinned freckles tall red hair blue/green eyes. And according to his Facebook (lol) this dude is from NH. He's from a town that's 97% white (according to Wikipedia). Explain to me how this kid was blasting Beres Hammond and Jah Cure and lists Movado. Ricky Blaze and Voicemail as some of his favorite artists. I have to talk to this kid soon. I met him last night and he left 15 minutes later. At the very least get some songs from him.. his reggae list is craaaaaazy! LOL. Oh and I learned. REGARDLESS of color all dudes in college are looking for sex. OK that's a gross generalization. But a fair number of them are that it feels like all of them are. I dunno. This is a tip for guys in general. If you are hitting on multiple women who are living in the same vicinity you are bound to get typecast. :)C-1 may have had explicit conversations with dorm mates which told him there was more to it than this. But the younger among you may still be helped by this perspective. If I had been in that dorm the deal breaker for friendship alone would have been compromised. Heads up when every cute black girl is chased by the same guy it sends the signal that he is into the temporary thing some will be offended. And if he's cute. well some girls will consider making it a temporary deal too. If you want a girlfriend.. It might do to find out which girl interests you. Just spend idle time with her homework lunch whatever. You don't have to shell out any money or show up with any flowers. Subtly let her know that she is attractive while not giving that type of attention to others. She will begin to get used to having you around and vice versa. Slow methodic flirting. when she continues to spend time with a guy who’s giving her this vibe and doesn't object in anyway then that is your signal. It's the little things that go a long way in situations like these. In other words. it becomes obvious that there is some value and honor attached to your view of her because she is no longer guessing to figure out who you are. You're just that cute friend that she cares a lot about and is waiting on to finally close the deal. The only misstep you can run into is choosing the right person to pursue and that should be more about your view of her treatment of people and what she tolerates. That's the girl who would tell you what her boundaries are instead of just using you for the extra attention. This is the kind of groundwork that "players" do (it's successful); only they do it insincerely without any concern for the people they play with. So it's pertinent that everybody who knows anybody is aware that you share that bond with only one girl. I addressed this to young guys because this was generally the way people did things back in the day. It’s called courting but I expect even the oldest among us has gotten used to the less effective methods of establishing long term relationships. What was the divorce rate again? 60 or 70%? I'm in my twenties btw. But you'll still find a lot of girls who without being taught that this is the way it goes- will just want it most times without being able to verbalize to you that this is what they want. Another example. Nodoby like desperation right? People like to be chosen. They like it more when they have concrete proof over time that they have become even more special to you. When you continue excluding others from this bond it only makes your chances that much stronger. I remember seeing a wedding video of an IR couple. And they were all over each other bw wm. It was really sweet. And then you began to see other bw women cutting in on the dances. The most "encouraging" bw in the wedding party began dirty dancing with the groom while the wife was on the other side of the room. And at one point nearly all the bw in the wedding party (young and old) crowded him on the dance floor and acted as if it was a marriage of one wm to all bw. The wife kept it cool and the groom seemed to sincerely love his new wife. She didn't complain and he didn't seem to think of this as anything other than fitting into a culture that was new different. But you know what everybody who grabbed that microphone said something along the lines of "stay strong love one another have lots of babies." I think the most sincere advice one person could have given was to set the boundaries early on and realize that a lot of women are going to treat you as family and then expect to cross the line "playfully." But any woman who even playfully acts romantically towards you is testing your boundaries. And she will continue to disrespect your wife friend or family member. Whether or not girlfriend or wifey plays it off it will show up in other waysBasically some behaviors should be set in stone as the things that you and her share because that creates security and makes both of you feel pretty special another example,You two are getting serious and her family drops by to visit her when she suggests that you come on over and say "hi." Your girl's college roommate calls you a cutie in front of friends and family. Nothing happens. Two hours later at dinner she says she couldn't blame your girl for "chasing you down." Let's rewind to the friendly get together..."My baby knows that she's the cutest woman in this room smartest too.. I guess that's why she had the patience to make me work for her."Everybody at that table is thinking ("damn") and you have just earned yourself a respect which cements the value of your relationship and who you are as a person. Plus your girl will secretly love you for this whether or not she reprimands you or pretends not to notice. Trust me it will be reciprocated.) Siddity. I can't believe your mother encouraged you to have an affair with a white man rather than marry one. I mean there are no words... Granted my mom was alway suspicious that any of the white guys I dated would ever be "serious" about me so I think we all express these issues in different ways. Thanks. C-1 for adding a new topic. I really had to take a break from the Kola Boof comments because I found them very depressing. I'll agree with you that BW are just as "curious" about WM; and I actually know one sistah who's been spreading the word to all the BW who'll listen and "venture out" that WM are better at performing oral sex than BM (due of course to their freakier ways which have clearly been documented the world over what with all the half-white children who exist on the planet mind you!) so you know there's all kinds of exotic stereotyping going on on both sides. (I think Kola Boof admitted as much in her autobiography!)Anyway to me this is all the result of what happens when people grow up segregated from each other - not living in the same neighborhoods not going to the same schools etc. That's the fundamental difference. I think between race relations in countries like Canada and England where there is more interaction between the races when people live next to each other and go to school together than in the U. S. Because seriously if we were growing up together the issue wouldn't be whether WM "perform" better than BM but more of the kind of cafeteria gossip where Johnny's known as a good lover but Tyrone's lousy for example. But if we keep seeing each other "across the tracks," what else do we have to go by other than stereotypes and mystical wonderment? "Grata but does that mean BW who feel that way should shut up about it or like C-1 prefers just be honest? Wm who stereotype you based on three are not worth your time. and are probably looking for an excuse. or just too damn insecure in the first place". Anonymous,No indeed. I didn't imply at all that such women should shut up. I expressed surprise. I had never heard of such a position before and it didn't make sense to me. If you reread my post you will see no intention of censoring people's candidness (It was enlightening for me actually that we could be so diverse in opinion). I like to express my opinion and have no right to deny others theirs as long as we all remain civil about it. Just because I look at the possible outcomes of such attitudes as expressed does not mean that I wish for them to be silenced. Instead. I am saying that since these attitudes are out there they risk being turned into stereotypes and all IR interested people should be acutely aware of them. Now I guess I am entitled to make my opinion too without being accused of wanting to shut people up. As for sieving out WM who steretype. I hope you take into consideration the complexities of stereotyping which is the main purpose of this post. Why do you see a sudden rise in BW/WM relationships? Some attribute it to the breaking down of barriers as in more acceptance and less ignorance in society at large. Among which is the challenging of long held views in which stereotypes are included. We have all been victims of stereotypes and believers of them so simply suggesting sieving out WM who stereotype is not a solution to this very complex issue of sterotyping and how it impacts IR dating. Firstly you will probably never encounter most WM that have bought into the negative stereotypes since they have a wide pool to choose from and are not up to the challenge of working through the issues that come with dating a BW. Why go through that tedious draining process?How does a sterotype begin? Someone observes something to be true in their own judgement and passes it on as fact to his/her community which due to their own biased motivations plug it as a fact. So it is not far fetched that a stereotype can be born out of the attitudes of the 3 said women. It all depends on the availability of a suitable medium to carry the message along. All this is a speculation on the possible impact of such attitudes which all IR people would do well to take time and contemplate on. Nothing against those that hold those views. Personally someone talking that position doesn't bother me it is actually an advantage because that means that these women narrow their chances which leaves many men in supply. As a community esp for BW those attitudes have a potentially negative PR effect. Its just the way it is. Great post. C-1I'm so happy I was raised in an racially open environment. My mother dated I/R frequently and encouraged me to keep my options open when it was time for me to marry. I can honestly say that I haven't come into a relationship based on racial stereotypes (the penis and oral sex where the ones I heard often but I loved Science and Human Anatomy. So. I'm inclined to believe that than a stereotype... LOL). Even knowing them as I do. I hadn't come across them enough to have it become a hang up. As a BW also knowing the stereotypes assigned to me. I haven't met a WM and assumed they thought this about me. Even with my experience with some WM being tactless it just doesn't come into my mind that they automatically assume I'm promiscuous uneducated a gold-digger have children by different men and on welfare. Usually they show their true colors early on and then I tell them how insulting it is to be labeled without them knowing me. That shuts them up and they apologize but the damage has been done already. They had no respect for me to begin with so why should I expect it now. On another note--I was also surprised by the comments on this and other blog's. When I started reading them. I felt like I was in another universe. There was no way this thinking was rampant among BW. Although I could relate to some of the experiences and feelings it wasn't in the same context as many of the women who were posting. I felt sheltered and naive. I just hope that the WM that lurk if they really are and post are not applying these as a generalization for all BW like the above commenter said. Dee I respect that you feel it's okay for that diversity to exist. This is the way I see it. A lot of young white guys actually feel deprived and become upset about it. Asian. Latin whatever- some of them are genuinely frustrated because they feel like a part of the world is closed off to them. And it becomes palpable- sometimes aggressive. I experienced that in high school and umm yea-I have as much interest as you do in making sure that everyone feels free to pursue others in a positive manner. I kind of see it as food and a hungry person the second usually follows the first. We've also looked at this "movement" on a more specific scale like that one couple that turns into twenty and so on. because that is ultimately the only kind of scale we can control in our everyday- being visible components of IR relationships. I understand where you're coming from but the responses to that post (and. I'm not saying they were yours) seemed to expose a vulnerability that you will not see in your white counterparts. Part of me asks well why do we have to work so hard at policing one another? I cannot imagine for all my life seeing a white guy harassed on match com by other white guys for his preferences. Or white guys going crazy over the way Bill Mayer thinks it's cool to screw bw but not have them as potential life mates. I felt like that whole thing was an overreaction. The aftermath made me feel that there are a whole lot more women who feel comfortable with a one- sided levels of accountability. And importantly they felt that way because of this supply falsehood. Honestly we do not know our power as women. I'm not saying we control men. But all the stats and stereotypes can't stop some very basic hormonal reactions from taking place because of your presence your smell. We will always find allies no matter how many stereotypes exist. If the payoff for some was to establish a new stereotype that bw can't stand this behavior. Well they do that at the cost of other things. Afrodite wrote. It's weird to hear the one about culture differences when some of those same men would date an asian/latina/white woman who has just moved to the states from their home country. To some white american men they see black culture as just as foreign even though we all grew up in the US. I've seen this as well. Maybe this is my own stereotype but it seems that some men who date IR subscribe to a racial hierarchy where asian women are at the top black women at the bottom and everyone else is kind of in between. I think these racial hierarchists also subscribe to the model minority/bad minority stereotypes and I don't think I need to go into those or why they would make someone who believes in them more attracted to one race and less attracted to another. I don't expect this is reflective of the wm who come to THIS blog or related blogs but it's out there. There are also some by no means all white men who date IR because they don't feel they could get a ww of the caliber they were seeking and so reluctantly went outside the race.(Sound familiar?) I'd say this group and the one described above have a lot of overlap based on the frequent posts on Craig's List from asian women-loving white men who can't profess their love for aw without totally and hatefully slamming white women or "American women". Some of these comments I have read oh my god! All I could think was. "How could you say that when your mother is white?" I asked once to which the reply was. "She's a bitch too". All in all. I think that the wm who are genuinely interested in bw usually have had to do some social deprogramming more so than those after women of other races. If not he would have just gone with the prevailing stereotypes that tell him not to bother. Maybe that's naive on my part but that's what I think. I know i'm gonna get it for this but if you want a wm to approach you it helps to wear one of these >>> :D Trust me it works! Heck some people argue that women choose the men with their body language and it's just the men who follow through as a response. Hint-Once a guy figures out I'm "into" wm the process is 10000x easier! Suddenly wm will be coming out the woodworks to ask you out lol@siditty. I know what you mean about bw who love wm but are reluctant to date one. One is my mom. She is a white man lover like me but she is still in the closet. Ever since I was little she would go on and on and on and ON about how much she loooved TOM CRUISE and KEANU. Her current crush is Mike Rowe from dirty jobs. In real life she dated one or two now she refuses to date them despite the fact that they ask her out. Oddly enough she is also very opposed to me dating wm. Sometimes I wonder if she's jealous lol. I don't know if it's just me but I don't attract a lot of down men. The typical man I date is a conservative Republican who is probably in the military. I also attract a lot of country boys that like 4 wheelin hunting and well you get the picture. Honestly. I don't really care for vanilla brotha types. In high school I attracted the blonde athletic guys (and sometimes still do!). :DI'm glad I went to a multiethnic school b/c it's so easy to come away with stereotypes about other races of people. @afrodite it also bugs me when folks start talking about cultural differences. Wm marry women straight from Korea,Japan. Mexico you name it but folks don't make a big deal about those cultural differences. Sometimes I think that what people mean is Asians and Latinas are different in a positive way. Black women would be different culturally in a negative way. But that's just an inkling I cant really prove. Or maybe they are referring to the big cultural taboo btwn wm/bw unions. *shrugs*-honeybunch Hey Anon. 7:54:I think you may have answered a question that has been puzzling me for sometime. The fact that your mom likes wm but chooses to stay "in the closet" about it validates my feeling that a lot of bw in the 40-45+ age group are truly interested in wm but can't make the jump from how they feel to how they act. I have had a number of conversations with bw online and when they see that I am TRULY interested in them they choke and stop communicating! Since we have never gotten much beyond the casual considerations of what kind of things do you like books movies food hobbies and other non-threatening and non-intrusive type of questions and they suddenly stop writing. I just scratch my head and wonder "What did I do?". It occurs to me that perhaps they were expecting the stereotypical wm who was going to hit them with the sex question right up front so that they could say to themselves. "I KNEW it!! Sex is the real reason a wm would be interested in me. My mama was right!" but when I DON'T follow the expected stereotype they don't know what to do next and panic-hence no more word from them. Now I'm not saying that ALL bw over 40 are this way but this has been my experience. It seems to be consistent with some of the comments made on this and other IR bogs too. I definitely sense a different mindset in the younger posters. Please don't get the impression that I am being negative in my comments that is not what I'm about here but it has been very confusing to me. As I stated earlier your description of your mother's attitudes in this area leads me to believe that I am getting close to what's going on. Another thing that I have encountered fairly frequently is what I have come to call "the question" and that is "Why do you want to date someone of another race?". After I explain to them that it is a preference and that I am neither ashamed of it nor uncomfortable with it many times I will get a response something like "That's what you say"-again I sense that they are thinking that there is no way a wm would be interested in a bw except for one thing. One instance that I remember quite vividly involved a simple question-"So what is your favorite restaurant?" her response was sudden and very emotionally charged-"I'll tell you one thing. I'm not going to sit in the back of any restaurant. If a man is not willing to sit up front with me I don't want to have anything to do with him!!". I assured her that if we ever got to the point where she allowed me the privilege of taking her out to dinner that I would not be skulking around like I was afraid someone might see me out with a bw and that I would be very honored that she agreed to go out with me and would treat her with dignity and consideration at all times. I never was able to decide if what prompted her reaction was a previous experience with some jerk who was of the "damn. I hope nobody sees me out with this woman" type or if it was just another instance of racial stereotypes influencing behavior. Whichever reason or reasons she stopped writing after that and I was again left wondering what had for certain happened. I can understand how and why many of the stereotypes would affect a bw's view of wm in general but am I out of line to expect someone who expresses an interest in an IR to be willing to set those aside until she can see who I am as an individual before she takes any actions?I really would like to hear from some of you ladies who are in the over 40 age group on this subject. In answer to Grant's question. I am 41 but I would not consider myself the typical BW because I grew up in a white neighborhood so I always had to make my way in the white world. I also look about 30 so I don't know if I have the typical experience of a BW in her 40s. When I was younger I did have relationships with WM but they were secret because my parents wouldn't let me date period. In college. I was good friends with a guy in one of my classes didn't realize he was into me until his black roommate in a moment of exasperation blurted it out. He never said anything..."the white man dance". This was typical of WM who liked me they never mentioned it and someone else always had to tell me. This probably left me with a perception that they were either ashamed or really shy which in the BC equals weak. This was not the case for an Italian man that once liked me which is why to this day I am still very attracted to Italian men and don't really consider them white - which is warped. I know. It is just that their style or approach is more assertive and to the point which I equate with being more masculine. This is something that I am trying to get over because I realize it could be affecting the types of men who approach me. I would never consider approaching a man and really liked. I expect that if a man is interested in me then he will approach me - with confidence. I do then to be much more flirty with Italian foriegn or darker skinned men (Latino etc) but this is because they are more flirty as well. I hope that WM reading this blog really pick up on this point because I have spoken with some of my girlfriends and they have mentioned the same thing. That the direct approach of a man who is interested in you really sets the tone for if you will accept their date and how you view them during the relationship. If a man approaches me and clearly states that he likes me and wants to take me out. 9 times out of 10 I will go out with him. Sometimes IN SPITE of the fact that I may not be that physically attracted to him. Because I know how much guts it takes to make that approach and how many men are afraid to do it. So immediately he gets points for manhood which is very sexy. I view him as having high sex appeal. I think women may be hardwired for this and BW even moreso because this approach is prevalant in our communities. I am not talking about being disrespectful. I am talking about having a high sense of confidence. ..... but Mmmm everyone sees midday at his door and empty barrels are the ones that make the most noise. I am not denying your contribution to help BW to see the other side however your alleged wisdom is limited when you feel the need and power to let everyone know your ability to delete your whole blog in ONE click. What a great wisdom?I actually thought you were a classy woman. Well now I know that the tree often hides the forest...... Good luck to you Evia and if you make enough profit and you feel the need to share I will still be lurking. As someone pointed out if you have something to say to me you could easily write to me personally. Why would you disrupt C-1's blog to say it? Specifically why are you so focused on me? You may not realize it but you've developed an abnormal fixation on me and/or a dependency on what you refer to as my "noise." LOL!So you're still trying to get me GIVE my "noise" to you. You've even gone so far as to try to assassinate my character by suggesting I lack "class." You should realize that your attempt to "try" to assassinate my character is pathetic and infantile because I have SHOWN my contributions to "the cause" for 15 months whereas all you and others like you are doing is showing that you can whine and that you're fixated on me. "No" means "no" whatever or whoever you are. In real life you're the type of man who would scare me because you can't accept that I've said "No." You're having some sort of delusion about me by going on and on about my decision. I don't OWE you anything and you don't OWN me. So you need to put yourself in check and stop whining that I won't GIVE you my wisdom and talents for FREE. It's as if you think you have some sort of proprietary "right" to me. LOL! The fact is that people like you are one of the main reasons why some people are HAPPY to subscribe to a private blog. You know you're living in backward times when some of the most sexy sultry strong graceful and BEAUTIFUL women on earth are being actively discriminated against. Makes you wonder what the hell is going through some of these guys' heads on the dating sites. Actually deep down I can't help but think. "Oh well more for me!" :D. I think it's hard to underestimate how negative the image of the black woman is in minds of many American white men (singling out American because European guys seem to know what's up). When you ask your average white guy to imagine a black woman he is more likely to imagine the stereotypical unattractive loud-mouthed overly aggressive. 4-inch nail havin'-maury polvich- ghetto queen then say a gabrielle union or a sanaa lathan. Maybe I'm wrong but this is certainly true for the white men I've met in my life. I think it's hard for some WM to see black people as equally human much less see black women as potential mates and wives. It's no coincidence missing black women get less media coverage than the blonde. There was a time in my own life when it was basically impossible for me to see black women in a romantic sense. I just never considered it. It's not that I thought less of them it's just that they might have well been invisible. It was like my brain didn't let me go there. It wasn't until I really questioned myself and opened up that I discover my own deep attraction to black women. My M. O had always been. 'it could never work so just ignore them'. I had always love dark-haired olive-skinned WHITE women so I guess it was a natural progression of sorts. :o I think it is important for black women to understand that even if many WM are still living in the dark many of us are not. And we outnumber you like 5 to 1 in this country so there is enough enlightened ones to go around. :p Please don't get discouraged by some ignorant fools and exclude all of us! Grant said:The fact that your mom likes wm but chooses to stay "in the closet" about it validates my feeling that a lot of bw in the 40-45+ age group are truly interested in wm but can't make the jump from how they feel to how they act. I have had a number of conversations with bw online and when they see that I am TRULY interested in them they choke and stop communicating! Since we have never gotten much beyond the casual considerations of what kind of things do you like books movies food hobbies and other non-threatening and non-intrusive type of questions and they suddenly stop writing. I just scratch my head and wonder "What did I do?". It occurs to me that perhaps they were expecting the stereotypical wm who was going to hit them with the sex question right up front so that they could say to themselves. "I KNEW it!! Sex is the real reason a wm would be interested in me. My mama was right!" but when I DON'T follow the expected stereotype they don't know what to do next and panic-hence no more word from them.==============================My response:I am going to venture a guess as to the reason(s) why those women suddenly stopped writing to you: Either you took a turn unbeknownst to you that you did so for the crude and vulgar or the women with whom you were corresponding never had any intention of "taking that next step." So when you put it out there that that was what you wanted to do they panicked. You’ve got to remember that a lot of women--and men--are just testing the waters playing around on the internet. Also a lot of black American women particularly are uptight about sex sexuality and sensuality. As a black woman--an American one at that--I am not insulted if a man desires me enough to want to have sex with me. I like sex. Sex is a good thing. I enjoy being desired. The thing is men are always thinking about sex regardless of their race. (As a man. I am sure that you know this. Sometimes that little head does the thinking for you when the big head would be better suited for the job.) Black men too have sex on their minds—no big deal in my book. What I don’t want is vulgarity. Men who are skeezy are a turn-off and they are easy to spot. Just because sex is on your brain doesn’t mean it has to come out of your mouth. Puritanism and Protestantism which are all-pervasive in American culture makes us quite an up-tight people regardless of race ethnicity class or age. We don’t know how to flirt. We think that sex is dirty that it is bad. When we do flirt it always borders on being vulgar or obscene. We feel insulted when we are sexually wanted that we turn someone on. A lot of black American women because of slavery don’t want to be desired by white men. To the the black women out there: If you are involved with a white man who finds black women attractive you can best be assured that your color your blackness is a turn-on for him. I don’t feel insulted by that. I like the look of the contrasting colors of our skin when our bodies are entwined trying to be one. Just because he digs the difference of his skin color against yours doesn’t mean he disrespects you as a person.===============================Grant said:One instance that I remember quite vividly involved a simple question-"So what is your favorite restaurant?" her response was sudden and very emotionally charged-"I'll tell you one thing. I'm not going to sit in the back of any restaurant. If a man is not willing to sit up front with me I don't want to have anything to do with him!!". I assured her that if we ever got to the point where she allowed me the privilege of taking her out to dinner that I would not be skulking around like I was afraid someone might see me out with a bw and that I would be very honored that she agreed to go out with me and would treat her with dignity and consideration at all times. =================================My response:Grant my dear if a black woman responds to your restaurant question that way then you should forget about her for she is ignorant. If you were to meet that woman for a date you would find that it would not be a privilege for you to date her; it would be a most harrowing experience for you. Not all black women are enlightened. Don’t let your attraction to us blind you to the fact that we are not monolithic. If you do that what will happen is that you will keep bumping up with the dumb chicks of the bunch then at some point you will categorize us as all being that way and then you will say. "F*ck it. I’m not bothering with black women any longer!" I would not spend one second of my time once a woman has so blatantly exposed her ignorance that way with that person. You are allowed to move on redcatbiker "I just was a little bit surprised at the type of reactions that last blog entry produced that's all. It seemed to open the door for WM to become hyper judgemental of us- when the truth is that kind of diversity exists on both sides of the playing field". Anonymous,True the diversity does exist on both sides but I am yet to meet a WM in an IR forum/community expressing such diversity. Usually they are on other non IR blogs spewing their vile. I have come across those that see BW as simply sex objects but none yet that wants to marry a BW but not have kids with her but would rather have them with a WW. Anyone with such info is welcome to share it. Like I mentioned before I understand the urge for that sentiment which I also have harbored being strongly tied to my African cultural roots life would be alot simpler. I feel I have been tricked by nature not to desire men of my race and be intensely attracted to WM. I can't even force myself 'briefly' for the sake of reproduction. And the whole notion of carrying another man's children into another marrriage is culturally unacceptable for me. It happens but with alot of strain. So it is only natural for me to have children with the man I get married to whatever race he may be. For women of this postion you will be wise to be very tactful about how you send that message out. Or hold off on IRs until your reproductive days are over. The best choice for you is to put off reproduction completely and not mention the real reason. And LOVE the WM man you end up with (I hope this is a reasonable expectation). I think it's hard to underestimate how negative the image of the black woman is in minds of many American white men (singling out American because European guys seem to know what's up). When you ask your average white guy to imagine a black woman he is more likely to imagine the stereotypical unattractive loud-mouthed overly aggressive. 4-inch nail havin'-maury polvich- ghetto queen then say a gabrielle union or a sanaa lathan. Maybe I'm wrong but this is certainly true for the white men I've met in my life i totally agree with this ryan and have argued this on my blog in one of my first posts! when you ask wm to imagine bw they do indeed resort to negative stereotypes. Their imagination readily reaches for the type of woman you describe this might have a lot to do with wm knowing bw through media (and we know the type of images of bw the media prefers!)At that point there is a sudden 'disconnection' between 'black' and the lovely quiet bw with the beguiling smile that works in the accounts department. Maybe this also has to do with the reported ability of white people to 'exclude' certain black folks from the black category whcih they associate with all things negative like somenone mentioned on another blog wp do say things like. "i didnt mean you Sarah you are not like that' or when asked they admit that they dont really see their close black colleagues as black they are coloublind etc i belive this in part explains the issue of checking off all ethnicities but black because black immediately mean 'shanaynay'. Indeed you sometimes find these same men responding to personals of attractive bw and when they get confronted on their profile specifications they are totally stumped for what to respond i wonder what would happen if these sites had images or names like (oprah) as opposed to terms black white or asian anyway i guess bw could do without such 'shallow' thinking men but it does buttress the fact that sometimes white folk dont even understand their own responses and actions around race ie they dont really 'know themselves' around race at all! Hey Ryan--Thanks for your opinion! They were kind. And they reminded me of when I met my husband's parents and other family members for the first time. I asked my guy what they thought of me. He said that his parents liked me and said that I was "different." I'm assuming they had a stereotypical view of what a young black woman would be like (so did a few of his relatives.) But it's ok because they treat me very well and my husband is awesome. And I think you're right that whites (as well as all sorts of ethnic minorities in the U. S.) STILL have a hard time seeing black people as equally human and equally deserving of respect. It's so interesting. It is truly a legacy left from so many early American "forefathers" who worked really really hard to find every reason to keep whites superior and separate from everyone else (Native Americans blacks etc.) During the 40th anniversary of Loving v. Virginia this summer. I read an article that described how states felt the need to establish laws prohibiting IR marriage and child rearing because there was too much of it going on in early America. And of course no white person could marry a slave. And after slavery many in the U. S. (and lawmakers) were terrified and needed to continue to keep us separate. Now many whites and blacks are separate by choice. (And sadly many ethnic minorities see associating with blacks in friendship and love is a bad thing too. I've had a few friends from India who were 'disowned' for marrying black men and women.)I think the key to bw and wm getting together is that we should calmly give each other the benefit of the doubt early on. If the individual is indeed just using the other for sex (or if just like with same race couples the people have different goals for a relationship) then just move on. (I've noticed that some black women say they are afraid of being used for sex by white men. What about how black men use black women for sex and leave a trail of babies in their wake?! There IS a reason for our 70% singleness rate!!) ryan said: "I think it is important for black women to understand that even if many WM are still living in the dark many of us are not. And we outnumber you like 5 to 1 in this country so there is enough enlightened ones to go around. :p Please don't get discouraged by some ignorant fools and exclude all of us!"Thanks ryan for encouraging us and reminding us of our options. This needed to be said redcatbiker said: "To the the black women out there: If you are involved with a white man who finds black women attractive you can best be assured that your color your blackness is a turn-on for him. I don’t feel insulted by that. I like the look of the contrasting colors of our skin when our bodies are entwined trying to be one. Just because he digs the difference of his skin color against yours doesn’t mean he disrespects you as a person."This also needed to be said so thank you redcatbiker for bringing back some sanity and some HUMANITY into the mix. It's okay to be desired for our skin color and our looks. And as in every relationship things should deepen beyond that if the relationship is sincere. If it doesn't it's time to move on not to use the experience as some moral story about how IR relationships is just about fetishizataion!Grant said: "The fact that your mom likes wm but chooses to stay "in the closet" about it validates my feeling that a lot of bw in the 40-45+ age group are truly interested in wm but can't make the jump from how they feel to how they act."First let me concur with someone else who said you sound like a really sweet guy and I wish you luck in finding your bw Ms. Right. I also want to agree with redcatbiker who said that perhaps women in that age group are very new to this high-tech age and are testing the waters with online dating so there's a protective wall that goes up which means that when you don't have a face-to-face meeting to judge the other all you have to go on is stereotype and unfortunately for many BW the WM stereotype is based on that he's-a-racist-all-he-wants-a-bw-for-is-sex caricature which unfortunately too many WM (past and present) have established and there's NO alternative worldview going on not anywhere in the predominant media. It isn't even an issue of how BW are "invisible" to others with the example of the "anyone but black" profiles that so many men fill out. If it's just an issue of blondes and Asian girls are the "desired ones" in the culture then that's one thing. But the other fact remains that BW are NOT invisible in much of media they're all over the place and the message given is simple: these women (BW) are the "undesirables" and any man who desires those women are sexually perverted deviant destined to be a failure! THAT'S the image that's out there of BW. When we say we've been maligned we're not exaggerating!And if things are like that still can you IMAGINE what it was like back in the day? I'm in my 30s so can't speak for the 40+ year olds out there but not long ago there was a system called Jim Crow which was designed to dehumanize black people. The kind of responses you've gotten. Grant remind me that deep down. American blacks are still very traumatized people. Redcatbiker says to not bother with such an "ignorant" woman who would tell you that she's not going to sit in the back of a restaurant. Funny but that kind of comment does NOT sound like ignorance! That sounds like a woman in real pain who needs a lot of therapy. I don't think white people realize just how traumatic the effects of racism have been for us! And yes. I'm talking post-traumatic stress disorder y'all! I mean clinically traumatized!The black community expects us to "get over it," to overcome it because it's the only way for survival in a society that HATES you (and let's not pretend that there isn't genuine hatred for black people just on the basis of our skin color). Because we've been conditioned to believe that racism is this big gigantic hurdle that "we shall overcome," none of us have ever explored what it means once you've survived to now get some therapy and deal with the effects of having "survived." So it's not a surprise to me really that there are BW especially in an older age group who are walking around "damaged," saying things to well-meaning white guys such as yourself. Grant that they will "not sit in the back of a restaurant," or who said in the Kola Boof post (there goes another BW in need of therapy!) that they would never have a WM's child. This is generational TRAUMA people so we just need more sensitivity. But I tell you what. Grant and any other WM who's lurking and posting to this blog this doesn't mean that IR relationships are hopeless. And there are TWO things WM should remember to do if they ever date/marry a BW: 1. Affirm that she's pretty desirable beautiful.2. Fight racism wherever and whenever you encounter it (even if it comes up within the relationship). I think we all just need to know that deep down you guys have our backs (and will stroke it). I really liked the NYT article. I don't see how a woman who married a man of similar educational background and ambition who pined after her for YEARS and was willing to stand up to his father's disapproval could be described as settling. I think maybe the objection is that many bw here are saying they considered white/other race men as an option once they realized waiting for bm was a losing proposition. I always went to mostly white schools and my first crush was a white boy who was my best friend in school. But I still had to struggle for a long time with the idea of dating a white man. Would that make me the worst thing in the world- a sell-out self-hating black person? How could I ever speak out against racial injustice if I were with a white man? And on the other hand is the perception that white guys just aren't that into us. Who wants to go for guys who will never want them? Part of resolving that for me was resolving my own identity. I'm not black first or a woman first. I am both equally. The bc does not and agenda that considers what bw need for self-preservation or self-fulfillment so why should I be on board with that agenda? So it is not the case of me thinking wm/other race men were a consolation prize for bm who were not showing up. It was a process of giving myself permission to date them and realizing it did not make me an inauthentic black person to want to date them. It was a process of opening up to more options that were always valued not settling for someone I thought was "less-than". Anyway am I the only one who sees us missing out on an opportunity here? Why do I see only women's photos? I know you male lurkers like to look at the pics we want to see pics also! Why not take the 2 seconds to put up a blogger profile and then maybe you can be conversing with someone you think is cute instead of posting that you think they are cute! You already know the bw here are IR-friendly so that's no excuse for shyness! knockoutchick says:Great posts Shirl. Halima and Ryan!Thanks for that!I think one of the biggest roadblocks facing black AMERICAN women is perception and images. Though we have made great strides in terms of education and advancement we are still weighed down by negative images. As I believe Halima noted when many think of BW.. they think of "Shaynaynay". What I see happening in NY is that there are so many elegant and charming BW out here en masse who don't fit that stereotype it FORCES people to re-think. This is why I say those of us who are successful BW have to stay on top of the media.. friends who are in media etc. Which is why I love "What about out daughters". We need more black models actresses spokespersons and so on. I am so glad for little pleasures.. like the fact something as banal as ANTM is run by a black woman Tyra Banks otherwise we certainly would not see as many black models. I am always on top of WHITE friends in entertainment about the negative images of BW. It is amazing how many white people do not even notice these things they just accept them as the norm. I know most of these folks are not racist they have just accepted certain images and ways of thinking.."like OK if we want a funny commerical when need a fat black woman". I don't have to say this to the BW friends in media because they are already on it as we see with what recently went down at VH-1. But often many WP are not thinking about insidiousness of these negative images and how they effect people.. because these negative images do not effect THEM!I think as more and more BW keep doing as they have been and moving forward soon there will be more of us in media management and then WE can help put an end to this foolishness. As for right now to find a man that is free from complete immersion in this American media cesspool.. look to Europe and Canada I say! Grant,I am not over 40 but please allow me to try to explain the behavior of the ladies that you are encountering online. First this is typical behavior of online dating so please don't think that it's 'only because you're white'. (Although it could be part of it)1.) Many people LIE about themselves (age/height/weight,etc) online so when they realize that you want to meet them they realize that the game is over and they then disappear. I watched a college roommate do this over and over and am still shaking my head over that craziness.2.) Many people LIE about their availability status (they are married/in a relationship and bored and flirting online with you for kicks). So when you up the ante they are gone.3.) Many people are searching online for love because they are too frightened/painfully shy to open up and meet people in real life. The painful paradox is they find love but haven't addressed their fear/shyness and would rather bolt that meet someone in reality. From your prior posts. I can't believe that you would ever write anything vulgar or demeaning. I think that you are unfortunately at higher risk of meeting the above groups due to your age bracket. (A lot of younger people have a better handle on online dating). Also. I stand guilty of being fearful of online dating. After tons of research and chats with friends. I put an ad up to 'test the waters' a few months ago. Not shy by nature. I totally believed that I was ready to meet someone from the 'web-o-sphere'. I was positively shocked at the amount of responses -- especially wm -- who responded. I got stressed out the online thing felt unnatural and scary and I took the ad down in just a few days. So maybe online is not for everybody. Perhaps you could attend a nice black church.. and join a group in there -- there are PLENTY of lonely attractive. 40+ish single black women up in church. If you hang around for more than 6 months they will know you well enough to let their guard down and give you a chance. As far as age differences are concerned. I think this is also playing part in the reactions too. I notice that my mother's generation in general is harsher to women than they are to men. There are exceptions women who call it as they see it. And when their snappy one liners are delivered to women it's acceptable. When they do it with men they face more criticism. But if they do it and their actions are perceived to give wm a "reason to label," us they have crossed the IR PROMOTION LINE. Sexism is one of my pet peeves. I know it exists in other communities but I think because of our choice to deal with oppression through promoting the male the BC has taken this thing to a whole new level. I expect that for many women this mindset will follow into their new relationships. The danger in this transfer is that this woman has now re-defined what a man is in her romantic life- he's non black. So on average any white guy who expresses vitriol or ignorance is likely to have his comments left in the dust by the anger directed at black women by black women. In the hopes of keeping him around this type of lady is much more likely to lose sight of the fact that she does not need to cater to anyone to keep them interested. And any guy who expresses the willingness to accept us as individuals (what they should have done in the first place) That guy is going to be praised to high heaven. If you reward expected behaviors you will attract those who want something for nothing. I consider myself polite but I do believe people stand to degrade themselves by being a little too generous at times.. A little to afraid of rocking the boat. Let's rock the damn boat lol. My aim is to get rid of those not strong enough to stand the force of the waves because they would only have played on the insecurities of women who are already vulnerable. I'm a woman who loves women and wants them to end up with the guy they may not have thought was available to them or the guy who their previous experiences have not even allowed them to fathom exists. I think we all need to examine our reactions to things and keep an open mind when thinking of how gender the bc standards and promoting IR plays a role there. I know some of us think we are paving the way for more men to feel welcome. But when you attract one type of guy. whatever attracted him is likely to turn off the guy who is very different from him. So what type of men do we really want to feel welcome on IR blogs? "Nice guys" may not abandon the cause. But in their pursuit of a partner you will likely go into one of two categories; the person who he will couch his approach with by formality and selective word choice in response to the exceptional level of courtesy she has shown him. or the person he can engage with completely because she is willing to challenge others without seeming unfair. This type of selection is not always conscious.. But the people who aren't afraid of a little controversy and almost feel like it's necessary to get to the bottom of things will feel more connected to women that don't work extra hard for acceptance. That type is perceptive and the reasons for certain behaviors aren't as invisible as we may think they are.. with the NICE guy anyways. I think the reason that Kola Boof will always have nice guys nice people in general befriend her is that she is honest. People distance themselves from unanticipated pain probably more so than they do from the real thing. Actions that take place out of fear are in a way a type of manipulation. I define nice people as those smart enough to imagine themselves in another person's shoes. Our behaviors are being examined from that viewpoint-by the nice ones. So. with them their are few secrets. People who are coming from a different vantage point will probably not be very good partners. And people that would be good partners are not available to women who manipulate even when there is genuinely a good cause at the basis of her actions. Sound ridiculous but the woman who doesn't compromise is not likely to become a spinster. The opposite is true. hi Granthokay... BW over 40 signing in... grrr I hate highlighting my age but hey it's for a good cause!You sound like a very sincere and personable guy. which in my view is worth a lot to any reasonable female. If I recall from lurking on Halima's blog you asked why a BW took a long pause before accepting your compliment about her hair. Halima I think suggested that the lady was "processing" your compliment because of implicit issues (race hair gender). Seriously Grant here is my take though I'm no expert: possibly the BW you're drawn to are the more conservative ones PLUS your desired age group are likely to be those who[a] need de-programming ie partly resistant or hesitant to IR date and being over 40 could mean most are quite set in their ways about life already [b] make up a large segment of the 70% BW singles remember they've not dated (properly) since slice bread was invented. If ever. I mean seriously there's an element of ignorance about how a man approaches a woman about dating inc various nuances. This ignorance is likely when you've been off the trail a long time. I think Evia addressed this point when she wrote about 'Evaluating Men' or something like that.[c] are new to online anything inc dating which itself necessitates more caution than offline. As such your approach online / offline may require build in some acknowledgement of their possible inhibitions around race and socialising interracially. Now I'm not saying that you need to tell them that some of your ".. best friends are black" which may be true but that phrase has been abused. And please dont put up pictures of you with only black people or with your black ex like some WM do on some IR dating sites. Hmmm moving on... My suggestions: you seem good at charming conversation online by finding common topics of interest acc to your post above. Keep doing that it's always the way to draw people out. Also continue to pay compliments about specific points on their looks (face skin tone)and their personality (eg sense of humour choice of jewelry in pics). Everyone responds well to compliments generally only that older women may have 'heard it all' so keep your sense of humour for any cynicism so that the lady knows you're not playing mind-games. Don't be put off if arranging a meetup seems to take a longer time for the ladies concernd some need to get used to a WM's open attention before they agree on a date. For example that happened to me when I was seeing a German guy recently (didnt work out eventually but boy I learnt a lot about myself) we were both very very busy and took ages before we could arrange to date#1. Turns out we work less than 10mins away from each other. Anyhow delaying the meet up allowed me to 'accept' that a WM was really interested in me. This is me who grew up in a cosmopolitan community.. and he was younger too. You didnt clarify on this but IF you're interested in marriage and children in future then say so early on. If you're not looking for marriage at all then given the over 40 age group you may have discouraged many potentially viable dates and find yourself (unfortunately) stereotyped. There will always be a portion of 'simply curious' BW and you could end up as someone's sex toy!For an older male perspective I guess other WM lurking & otherwise may be able to help out further. It may seem like you picked a doubly tough group but sincerely I can tell you that the woman you connect with will be well worth it. As a guy you get to do the approaching. I do feel for you on the rejection issue esp when one has genuine intentions. It sucks the same whether in person or by email. But life goes on. I'd rather move on now than later when I've really 'invested' myself in the other person. Wouldn't you?Grant sorry about the long post but I hope it helps somewhat. May you find love soon. And may I myself find love soon best wishes The last anonymous poster made a very good point about perceptions and how we need more black female role models in the media that celebrate our unique diversity. But hopefully all women in this forum will remember to make it a point to lead by example especially to our 'little sisters'. True the media is who they might turn to first but they know that the images aren't necessarily real or even their own reality. All of us young and old can't really relate to celebrities because we don't know them but relate to people we know. Young girls know mom grandma cousin auntie godmother,'play' auntie and mommy's girlfriends. Assert your confidence knowledge and positivity across the board especially if you date IR show them you are proud to do so. We can't rely and expect the money-obsessed media to instill good values in our young women;make it a point to realize that every person that has children somewhere in their lives has an obligation to inspire and uplift. And don't think this power will be lost on grown folks as well; you can inspire any woman by your own positivity a lot of times without even knowing it. My mother who is a very strong black woman always tells her friends that she wants to be me when she grows up. LOL! The real heroes and sheroes are ordinary people not the manufactured media talent and they are the ones who are changing the world one micro-step at a time. The best thing about all of this is that every single one of us can have a share in making a difference. "Because we've been conditioned to believe that racism is this big gigantic hurdle that "we shall overcome," none of us have ever explored what it means once you've survived to now get some therapy and deal with the effects of having "survived." Jayinny,Thanks. Very well said. BP living today will never survive racism they just have to adopt to a permanently hostile society and do the best they can to change tha

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So. I had to take a mini break from the blog and no not because of the Kola Boof comments just simply to get some work done. In fact though many of you seemed surprised by the candor of the conversation. I was not. Black women who date IR but would never have a white man's child? Not surprising to me either. I've heard it before from more than a few black women. Iactually thought it was kind of common. Maybe were all just getting hung up on some misconceptions and stereotypes. When I lived in a college dorm my building had a few very attractive single black girls. Being who I am. I spent an inordinate amount of time flirting and hitting on them much to the chagrin of some white girls. And they were not shy about flirting back and dropping compliments about my blond hair blue eyes and how they thought I was. The thing was though even though we had fun with all this they made it clear they would never date me. Why not you may ask? Well because they didn't really want to date a white man. White guys are notoriously accused of being interested in black girls for sex only. Would anyone believe the opposite is sometimes true? I've also come across black girls that were very interested in going out with me but as they made abundantly clear not for anything serious. They were attracted to white guys but like the girls from my dorm they would rather not see a white guy seriously. Many people point to Asian women as the queens of interracial relationships but that's not always true either. There are plenty of Asian women who don't interracially date. An ex roommate of mine tried to hook me up with someone from her group of girlfriends; that group being a large assortment of intelligent and attractive Asian gals. Nearly everyone informed her they wouldn't date a white guy and several said the big reason they wouldn't date me is because my eyebrows are too blond!!!What's the point of all this? The point is we get to interested in stock scenarios and stereotypes and we forget people are complicated and race relations even more so. Even in IR circles things are not as they seem and motives are not cut and dry. White men and black women and people in general still have allot of racial hangups and preferences that don't fit into the comfortable images we have in our minds. If someone is turned off simply because of race you better off not dating them anyway. If your not comfortable in taking things to the next level with someone becuase of a racial issue? Do them a favor if you love that somebody let them go. You are right there are a lot of misconceptions and stereotypes. I can surely believe that there are some black women who will want to go after white men purely for sex just to see if stereotypes are true. I know this is strange but as a teen growing up I was always told white people are easy and freaky in bed. They even do oral sex and self gratification which for some reason at that time was considered gross. They tie up people and do all kinds of sexual things black people won't do. I grew up believing that. I am sure like white men who grew up with sexual stereotypes of black women that there are black women out there just as curious to know what it is like to be with white men. I have known black women to purposely seek out white men for the sole purpose of getting pregnant by them so they could have "pretty babys". My cousin did that two of her four kids are biracial and she is quick to point out their light skin and "bright eyes". It is kind of scary considered her youngest two have two black parents and she doesn't seem quite as excited about how they look. I see all the time black woman would find white men attractive but not date them. I have coworkers like that they will oooohhhh and aahhhh over David Beckham and Justin Timberlake but would never ever date a white man in real life. They believe they are meant to be with black men. I think many times black women are told it is bad to date outside your race. You are a traitor and you are some how letting down all the black people out there. There is also family pressure. I remember when I was in high school I "dated" white guys but obviously nothing serious. By the time I got to college. I had gotten into a "serious" relationship with a white guy and my mother and father started to get concerned. My mother pulled me aside and told me if I wanted a white guy that bad marry a black guy and have an affair with a white guy. I think Asians do get a pass on dating IR a bit more than blacks do. It isn't as political with them and no one bats an eye when they see an Asian woman and white man together. Their biggest stereotype and I am guilty of this myself if I see a older white man with a younger Asian woman who appears to be recently from another country. I think "mail order bride". Also growing up in a predominantly white area. I find that whites are more accepting of Asian and white relationships. At my high school I created controversy by going to prom with a white guy. No one said a thing to the Asian girl and guy that went to prom together. It didn't seem to be as big of a deal. Dating in general is complicated throw IR into the scenario things get a little bit trickier. But to be honest when I am with my husband we are not always thinking about race. I don't refer to him as "my white husband" and he doesn't refer to me as his "black wife". I don't go home and ask him how was it to be white on any given day and he doesn't ask me about how hard is it being black. I like this post. My roommate and I had been talking about it; it was at the end of the semester and it was warm so a bunch of guys were throwing around a football. And I told her that those were the types of guys that I wanted. She told me frankly good luck because those types of guys don't date black girls or if they would they would go for someone fairer like her (she's mixed Puerto Rican and Jamaican). But then she said I might have a chance because of the fact that I grew up in RI and of the way I speak and dress. I remember freshman year the white guys who approached me were the "down" ones who hung out with a group of black guys. But. I mean. I don't date someone because of skin color... I wouldn't date a "down" black guy so why a white one?But yeah there are alot of stereotypes; preppy guys don't date black girls and so forth. But you know what.. don't believe in them because obviously not everybody subscribes to them. I get surprised by people everyday. Like last night. I hung out with a friend and I met his roommate who's name is Teddy and he's fair-skinned freckles tall red hair blue/green eyes. And according to his Facebook (lol) this dude is from NH. He's from a town that's 97% white (according to Wikipedia). Explain to me how this kid was blasting Beres Hammond and Jah Cure and lists Movado. Ricky Blaze and Voicemail as some of his favorite artists. I have to talk to this kid soon. I met him last night and he left 15 minutes later. At the very least get some songs from him.. his reggae list is craaaaaazy! LOL. Oh and I learned. REGARDLESS of color all dudes in college are looking for sex. OK that's a gross generalization. But a fair number of them are that it feels like all of them are. I dunno. This is a tip for guys in general. If you are hitting on multiple women who are living in the same vicinity you are bound to get typecast. :)C-1 may have had explicit conversations with dorm mates which told him there was more to it than this. But the younger among you may still be helped by this perspective. If I had been in that dorm the deal breaker for friendship alone would have been compromised. Heads up when every cute black girl is chased by the same guy it sends the signal that he is into the temporary thing some will be offended. And if he's cute. well some girls will consider making it a temporary deal too. If you want a girlfriend.. It might do to find out which girl interests you. Just spend idle time with her homework lunch whatever. You don't have to shell out any money or show up with any flowers. Subtly let her know that she is attractive while not giving that type of attention to others. She will begin to get used to having you around and vice versa. Slow methodic flirting. when she continues to spend time with a guy who’s giving her this vibe and doesn't object in anyway then that is your signal. It's the little things that go a long way in situations like these. In other words. it becomes obvious that there is some value and honor attached to your view of her because she is no longer guessing to figure out who you are. You're just that cute friend that she cares a lot about and is waiting on to finally close the deal. The only misstep you can run into is choosing the right person to pursue and that should be more about your view of her treatment of people and what she tolerates. That's the girl who would tell you what her boundaries are instead of just using you for the extra attention. This is the kind of groundwork that "players" do (it's successful); only they do it insincerely without any concern for the people they play with. So it's pertinent that everybody who knows anybody is aware that you share that bond with only one girl. I addressed this to young guys because this was generally the way people did things back in the day. It’s called courting but I expect even the oldest among us has gotten used to the less effective methods of establishing long term relationships. What was the divorce rate again? 60 or 70%? I'm in my twenties btw. But you'll still find a lot of girls who without being taught that this is the way it goes- will just want it most times without being able to verbalize to you that this is what they want. Another example. Nodoby like desperation right? People like to be chosen. They like it more when they have concrete proof over time that they have become even more special to you. When you continue excluding others from this bond it only makes your chances that much stronger. I remember seeing a wedding video of an IR couple. And they were all over each other bw wm. It was really sweet. And then you began to see other bw women cutting in on the dances. The most "encouraging" bw in the wedding party began dirty dancing with the groom while the wife was on the other side of the room. And at one point nearly all the bw in the wedding party (young and old) crowded him on the dance floor and acted as if it was a marriage of one wm to all bw. The wife kept it cool and the groom seemed to sincerely love his new wife. She didn't complain and he didn't seem to think of this as anything other than fitting into a culture that was new different. But you know what everybody who grabbed that microphone said something along the lines of "stay strong love one another have lots of babies." I think the most sincere advice one person could have given was to set the boundaries early on and realize that a lot of women are going to treat you as family and then expect to cross the line "playfully." But any woman who even playfully acts romantically towards you is testing your boundaries. And she will continue to disrespect your wife friend or family member. Whether or not girlfriend or wifey plays it off it will show up in other waysBasically some behaviors should be set in stone as the things that you and her share because that creates security and makes both of you feel pretty special another example,You two are getting serious and her family drops by to visit her when she suggests that you come on over and say "hi." Your girl's college roommate calls you a cutie in front of friends and family. Nothing happens. Two hours later at dinner she says she couldn't blame your girl for "chasing you down." Let's rewind to the friendly get together..."My baby knows that she's the cutest woman in this room smartest too.. I guess that's why she had the patience to make me work for her."Everybody at that table is thinking ("damn") and you have just earned yourself a respect which cements the value of your relationship and who you are as a person. Plus your girl will secretly love you for this whether or not she reprimands you or pretends not to notice. Trust me it will be reciprocated.) Siddity. I can't believe your mother encouraged you to have an affair with a white man rather than marry one. I mean there are no words... Granted my mom was alway suspicious that any of the white guys I dated would ever be "serious" about me so I think we all express these issues in different ways. Thanks. C-1 for adding a new topic. I really had to take a break from the Kola Boof comments because I found them very depressing. I'll agree with you that BW are just as "curious" about WM; and I actually know one sistah who's been spreading the word to all the BW who'll listen and "venture out" that WM are better at performing oral sex than BM (due of course to their freakier ways which have clearly been documented the world over what with all the half-white children who exist on the planet mind you!) so you know there's all kinds of exotic stereotyping going on on both sides. (I think Kola Boof admitted as much in her autobiography!)Anyway to me this is all the result of what happens when people grow up segregated from each other - not living in the same neighborhoods not going to the same schools etc. That's the fundamental difference. I think between race relations in countries like Canada and England where there is more interaction between the races when people live next to each other and go to school together than in the U. S. Because seriously if we were growing up together the issue wouldn't be whether WM "perform" better than BM but more of the kind of cafeteria gossip where Johnny's known as a good lover but Tyrone's lousy for example. But if we keep seeing each other "across the tracks," what else do we have to go by other than stereotypes and mystical wonderment? "Grata but does that mean BW who feel that way should shut up about it or like C-1 prefers just be honest? Wm who stereotype you based on three are not worth your time. and are probably looking for an excuse. or just too damn insecure in the first place". Anonymous,No indeed. I didn't imply at all that such women should shut up. I expressed surprise. I had never heard of such a position before and it didn't make sense to me. If you reread my post you will see no intention of censoring people's candidness (It was enlightening for me actually that we could be so diverse in opinion). I like to express my opinion and have no right to deny others theirs as long as we all remain civil about it. Just because I look at the possible outcomes of such attitudes as expressed does not mean that I wish for them to be silenced. Instead. I am saying that since these attitudes are out there they risk being turned into stereotypes and all IR interested people should be acutely aware of them. Now I guess I am entitled to make my opinion too without being accused of wanting to shut people up. As for sieving out WM who steretype. I hope you take into consideration the complexities of stereotyping which is the main purpose of this post. Why do you see a sudden rise in BW/WM relationships? Some attribute it to the breaking down of barriers as in more acceptance and less ignorance in society at large. Among which is the challenging of long held views in which stereotypes are included. We have all been victims of stereotypes and believers of them so simply suggesting sieving out WM who stereotype is not a solution to this very complex issue of sterotyping and how it impacts IR dating. Firstly you will probably never encounter most WM that have bought into the negative stereotypes since they have a wide pool to choose from and are not up to the challenge of working through the issues that come with dating a BW. Why go through that tedious draining process?How does a sterotype begin? Someone observes something to be true in their own judgement and passes it on as fact to his/her community which due to their own biased motivations plug it as a fact. So it is not far fetched that a stereotype can be born out of the attitudes of the 3 said women. It all depends on the availability of a suitable medium to carry the message along. All this is a speculation on the possible impact of such attitudes which all IR people would do well to take time and contemplate on. Nothing against those that hold those views. Personally someone talking that position doesn't bother me it is actually an advantage because that means that these women narrow their chances which leaves many men in supply. As a community esp for BW those attitudes have a potentially negative PR effect. Its just the way it is. Great post. C-1I'm so happy I was raised in an racially open environment. My mother dated I/R frequently and encouraged me to keep my options open when it was time for me to marry. I can honestly say that I haven't come into a relationship based on racial stereotypes (the penis and oral sex where the ones I heard often but I loved Science and Human Anatomy. So. I'm inclined to believe that than a stereotype... LOL). Even knowing them as I do. I hadn't come across them enough to have it become a hang up. As a BW also knowing the stereotypes assigned to me. I haven't met a WM and assumed they thought this about me. Even with my experience with some WM being tactless it just doesn't come into my mind that they automatically assume I'm promiscuous uneducated a gold-digger have children by different men and on welfare. Usually they show their true colors early on and then I tell them how insulting it is to be labeled without them knowing me. That shuts them up and they apologize but the damage has been done already. They had no respect for me to begin with so why should I expect it now. On another note--I was also surprised by the comments on this and other blog's. When I started reading them. I felt like I was in another universe. There was no way this thinking was rampant among BW. Although I could relate to some of the experiences and feelings it wasn't in the same context as many of the women who were posting. I felt sheltered and naive. I just hope that the WM that lurk if they really are and post are not applying these as a generalization for all BW like the above commenter said. Dee I respect that you feel it's okay for that diversity to exist. This is the way I see it. A lot of young white guys actually feel deprived and become upset about it. Asian. Latin whatever- some of them are genuinely frustrated because they feel like a part of the world is closed off to them. And it becomes palpable- sometimes aggressive. I experienced that in high school and umm yea-I have as much interest as you do in making sure that everyone feels free to pursue others in a positive manner. I kind of see it as food and a hungry person the second usually follows the first. We've also looked at this "movement" on a more specific scale like that one couple that turns into twenty and so on. because that is ultimately the only kind of scale we can control in our everyday- being visible components of IR relationships. I understand where you're coming from but the responses to that post (and. I'm not saying they were yours) seemed to expose a vulnerability that you will not see in your white counterparts. Part of me asks well why do we have to work so hard at policing one another? I cannot imagine for all my life seeing a white guy harassed on match com by other white guys for his preferences. Or white guys going crazy over the way Bill Mayer thinks it's cool to screw bw but not have them as potential life mates. I felt like that whole thing was an overreaction. The aftermath made me feel that there are a whole lot more women who feel comfortable with a one- sided levels of accountability. And importantly they felt that way because of this supply falsehood. Honestly we do not know our power as women. I'm not saying we control men. But all the stats and stereotypes can't stop some very basic hormonal reactions from taking place because of your presence your smell. We will always find allies no matter how many stereotypes exist. If the payoff for some was to establish a new stereotype that bw can't stand this behavior. Well they do that at the cost of other things. Afrodite wrote. It's weird to hear the one about culture differences when some of those same men would date an asian/latina/white woman who has just moved to the states from their home country. To some white american men they see black culture as just as foreign even though we all grew up in the US. I've seen this as well. Maybe this is my own stereotype but it seems that some men who date IR subscribe to a racial hierarchy where asian women are at the top black women at the bottom and everyone else is kind of in between. I think these racial hierarchists also subscribe to the model minority/bad minority stereotypes and I don't think I need to go into those or why they would make someone who believes in them more attracted to one race and less attracted to another. I don't expect this is reflective of the wm who come to THIS blog or related blogs but it's out there. There are also some by no means all white men who date IR because they don't feel they could get a ww of the caliber they were seeking and so reluctantly went outside the race.(Sound familiar?) I'd say this group and the one described above have a lot of overlap based on the frequent posts on Craig's List from asian women-loving white men who can't profess their love for aw without totally and hatefully slamming white women or "American women". Some of these comments I have read oh my god! All I could think was. "How could you say that when your mother is white?" I asked once to which the reply was. "She's a bitch too". All in all. I think that the wm who are genuinely interested in bw usually have had to do some social deprogramming more so than those after women of other races. If not he would have just gone with the prevailing stereotypes that tell him not to bother. Maybe that's naive on my part but that's what I think. I know i'm gonna get it for this but if you want a wm to approach you it helps to wear one of these >>> :D Trust me it works! Heck some people argue that women choose the men with their body language and it's just the men who follow through as a response. Hint-Once a guy figures out I'm "into" wm the process is 10000x easier! Suddenly wm will be coming out the woodworks to ask you out lol@siditty. I know what you mean about bw who love wm but are reluctant to date one. One is my mom. She is a white man lover like me but she is still in the closet. Ever since I was little she would go on and on and on and ON about how much she loooved TOM CRUISE and KEANU. Her current crush is Mike Rowe from dirty jobs. In real life she dated one or two now she refuses to date them despite the fact that they ask her out. Oddly enough she is also very opposed to me dating wm. Sometimes I wonder if she's jealous lol. I don't know if it's just me but I don't attract a lot of down men. The typical man I date is a conservative Republican who is probably in the military. I also attract a lot of country boys that like 4 wheelin hunting and well you get the picture. Honestly. I don't really care for vanilla brotha types. In high school I attracted the blonde athletic guys (and sometimes still do!). :DI'm glad I went to a multiethnic school b/c it's so easy to come away with stereotypes about other races of people. @afrodite it also bugs me when folks start talking about cultural differences. Wm marry women straight from Korea,Japan. Mexico you name it but folks don't make a big deal about those cultural differences. Sometimes I think that what people mean is Asians and Latinas are different in a positive way. Black women would be different culturally in a negative way. But that's just an inkling I cant really prove. Or maybe they are referring to the big cultural taboo btwn wm/bw unions. *shrugs*-honeybunch Hey Anon. 7:54:I think you may have answered a question that has been puzzling me for sometime. The fact that your mom likes wm but chooses to stay "in the closet" about it validates my feeling that a lot of bw in the 40-45+ age group are truly interested in wm but can't make the jump from how they feel to how they act. I have had a number of conversations with bw online and when they see that I am TRULY interested in them they choke and stop communicating! Since we have never gotten much beyond the casual considerations of what kind of things do you like books movies food hobbies and other non-threatening and non-intrusive type of questions and they suddenly stop writing. I just scratch my head and wonder "What did I do?". It occurs to me that perhaps they were expecting the stereotypical wm who was going to hit them with the sex question right up front so that they could say to themselves. "I KNEW it!! Sex is the real reason a wm would be interested in me. My mama was right!" but when I DON'T follow the expected stereotype they don't know what to do next and panic-hence no more word from them. Now I'm not saying that ALL bw over 40 are this way but this has been my experience. It seems to be consistent with some of the comments made on this and other IR bogs too. I definitely sense a different mindset in the younger posters. Please don't get the impression that I am being negative in my comments that is not what I'm about here but it has been very confusing to me. As I stated earlier your description of your mother's attitudes in this area leads me to believe that I am getting close to what's going on. Another thing that I have encountered fairly frequently is what I have come to call "the question" and that is "Why do you want to date someone of another race?". After I explain to them that it is a preference and that I am neither ashamed of it nor uncomfortable with it many times I will get a response something like "That's what you say"-again I sense that they are thinking that there is no way a wm would be interested in a bw except for one thing. One instance that I remember quite vividly involved a simple question-"So what is your favorite restaurant?" her response was sudden and very emotionally charged-"I'll tell you one thing. I'm not going to sit in the back of any restaurant. If a man is not willing to sit up front with me I don't want to have anything to do with him!!". I assured her that if we ever got to the point where she allowed me the privilege of taking her out to dinner that I would not be skulking around like I was afraid someone might see me out with a bw and that I would be very honored that she agreed to go out with me and would treat her with dignity and consideration at all times. I never was able to decide if what prompted her reaction was a previous experience with some jerk who was of the "damn. I hope nobody sees me out with this woman" type or if it was just another instance of racial stereotypes influencing behavior. Whichever reason or reasons she stopped writing after that and I was again left wondering what had for certain happened. I can understand how and why many of the stereotypes would affect a bw's view of wm in general but am I out of line to expect someone who expresses an interest in an IR to be willing to set those aside until she can see who I am as an individual before she takes any actions?I really would like to hear from some of you ladies who are in the over 40 age group on this subject. In answer to Grant's question. I am 41 but I would not consider myself the typical BW because I grew up in a white neighborhood so I always had to make my way in the white world. I also look about 30 so I don't know if I have the typical experience of a BW in her 40s. When I was younger I did have relationships with WM but they were secret because my parents wouldn't let me date period. In college. I was good friends with a guy in one of my classes didn't realize he was into me until his black roommate in a moment of exasperation blurted it out. He never said anything..."the white man dance". This was typical of WM who liked me they never mentioned it and someone else always had to tell me. This probably left me with a perception that they were either ashamed or really shy which in the BC equals weak. This was not the case for an Italian man that once liked me which is why to this day I am still very attracted to Italian men and don't really consider them white - which is warped. I know. It is just that their style or approach is more assertive and to the point which I equate with being more masculine. This is something that I am trying to get over because I realize it could be affecting the types of men who approach me. I would never consider approaching a man and really liked. I expect that if a man is interested in me then he will approach me - with confidence. I do then to be much more flirty with Italian foriegn or darker skinned men (Latino etc) but this is because they are more flirty as well. I hope that WM reading this blog really pick up on this point because I have spoken with some of my girlfriends and they have mentioned the same thing. That the direct approach of a man who is interested in you really sets the tone for if you will accept their date and how you view them during the relationship. If a man approaches me and clearly states that he likes me and wants to take me out. 9 times out of 10 I will go out with him. Sometimes IN SPITE of the fact that I may not be that physically attracted to him. Because I know how much guts it takes to make that approach and how many men are afraid to do it. So immediately he gets points for manhood which is very sexy. I view him as having high sex appeal. I think women may be hardwired for this and BW even moreso because this approach is prevalant in our communities. I am not talking about being disrespectful. I am talking about having a high sense of confidence. ..... but Mmmm everyone sees midday at his door and empty barrels are the ones that make the most noise. I am not denying your contribution to help BW to see the other side however your alleged wisdom is limited when you feel the need and power to let everyone know your ability to delete your whole blog in ONE click. What a great wisdom?I actually thought you were a classy woman. Well now I know that the tree often hides the forest...... Good luck to you Evia and if you make enough profit and you feel the need to share I will still be lurking. As someone pointed out if you have something to say to me you could easily write to me personally. Why would you disrupt C-1's blog to say it? Specifically why are you so focused on me? You may not realize it but you've developed an abnormal fixation on me and/or a dependency on what you refer to as my "noise." LOL!So you're still trying to get me GIVE my "noise" to you. You've even gone so far as to try to assassinate my character by suggesting I lack "class." You should realize that your attempt to "try" to assassinate my character is pathetic and infantile because I have SHOWN my contributions to "the cause" for 15 months whereas all you and others like you are doing is showing that you can whine and that you're fixated on me. "No" means "no" whatever or whoever you are. In real life you're the type of man who would scare me because you can't accept that I've said "No." You're having some sort of delusion about me by going on and on about my decision. I don't OWE you anything and you don't OWN me. So you need to put yourself in check and stop whining that I won't GIVE you my wisdom and talents for FREE. It's as if you think you have some sort of proprietary "right" to me. LOL! The fact is that people like you are one of the main reasons why some people are HAPPY to subscribe to a private blog. You know you're living in backward times when some of the most sexy sultry strong graceful and BEAUTIFUL women on earth are being actively discriminated against. Makes you wonder what the hell is going through some of these guys' heads on the dating sites. Actually deep down I can't help but think. "Oh well more for me!" :D. I think it's hard to underestimate how negative the image of the black woman is in minds of many American white men (singling out American because European guys seem to know what's up). When you ask your average white guy to imagine a black woman he is more likely to imagine the stereotypical unattractive loud-mouthed overly aggressive. 4-inch nail havin'-maury polvich- ghetto queen then say a gabrielle union or a sanaa lathan. Maybe I'm wrong but this is certainly true for the white men I've met in my life. I think it's hard for some WM to see black people as equally human much less see black women as potential mates and wives. It's no coincidence missing black women get less media coverage than the blonde. There was a time in my own life when it was basically impossible for me to see black women in a romantic sense. I just never considered it. It's not that I thought less of them it's just that they might have well been invisible. It was like my brain didn't let me go there. It wasn't until I really questioned myself and opened up that I discover my own deep attraction to black women. My M. O had always been. 'it could never work so just ignore them'. I had always love dark-haired olive-skinned WHITE women so I guess it was a natural progression of sorts. :o I think it is important for black women to understand that even if many WM are still living in the dark many of us are not. And we outnumber you like 5 to 1 in this country so there is enough enlightened ones to go around. :p Please don't get discouraged by some ignorant fools and exclude all of us! Grant said:The fact that your mom likes wm but chooses to stay "in the closet" about it validates my feeling that a lot of bw in the 40-45+ age group are truly interested in wm but can't make the jump from how they feel to how they act. I have had a number of conversations with bw online and when they see that I am TRULY interested in them they choke and stop communicating! Since we have never gotten much beyond the casual considerations of what kind of things do you like books movies food hobbies and other non-threatening and non-intrusive type of questions and they suddenly stop writing. I just scratch my head and wonder "What did I do?". It occurs to me that perhaps they were expecting the stereotypical wm who was going to hit them with the sex question right up front so that they could say to themselves. "I KNEW it!! Sex is the real reason a wm would be interested in me. My mama was right!" but when I DON'T follow the expected stereotype they don't know what to do next and panic-hence no more word from them.==============================My response:I am going to venture a guess as to the reason(s) why those women suddenly stopped writing to you: Either you took a turn unbeknownst to you that you did so for the crude and vulgar or the women with whom you were corresponding never had any intention of "taking that next step." So when you put it out there that that was what you wanted to do they panicked. You’ve got to remember that a lot of women--and men--are just testing the waters playing around on the internet. Also a lot of black American women particularly are uptight about sex sexuality and sensuality. As a black woman--an American one at that--I am not insulted if a man desires me enough to want to have sex with me. I like sex. Sex is a good thing. I enjoy being desired. The thing is men are always thinking about sex regardless of their race. (As a man. I am sure that you know this. Sometimes that little head does the thinking for you when the big head would be better suited for the job.) Black men too have sex on their minds—no big deal in my book. What I don’t want is vulgarity. Men who are skeezy are a turn-off and they are easy to spot. Just because sex is on your brain doesn’t mean it has to come out of your mouth. Puritanism and Protestantism which are all-pervasive in American culture makes us quite an up-tight people regardless of race ethnicity class or age. We don’t know how to flirt. We think that sex is dirty that it is bad. When we do flirt it always borders on being vulgar or obscene. We feel insulted when we are sexually wanted that we turn someone on. A lot of black American women because of slavery don’t want to be desired by white men. To the the black women out there: If you are involved with a white man who finds black women attractive you can best be assured that your color your blackness is a turn-on for him. I don’t feel insulted by that. I like the look of the contrasting colors of our skin when our bodies are entwined trying to be one. Just because he digs the difference of his skin color against yours doesn’t mean he disrespects you as a person.===============================Grant said:One instance that I remember quite vividly involved a simple question-"So what is your favorite restaurant?" her response was sudden and very emotionally charged-"I'll tell you one thing. I'm not going to sit in the back of any restaurant. If a man is not willing to sit up front with me I don't want to have anything to do with him!!". I assured her that if we ever got to the point where she allowed me the privilege of taking her out to dinner that I would not be skulking around like I was afraid someone might see me out with a bw and that I would be very honored that she agreed to go out with me and would treat her with dignity and consideration at all times. =================================My response:Grant my dear if a black woman responds to your restaurant question that way then you should forget about her for she is ignorant. If you were to meet that woman for a date you would find that it would not be a privilege for you to date her; it would be a most harrowing experience for you. Not all black women are enlightened. Don’t let your attraction to us blind you to the fact that we are not monolithic. If you do that what will happen is that you will keep bumping up with the dumb chicks of the bunch then at some point you will categorize us as all being that way and then you will say. "F*ck it. I’m not bothering with black women any longer!" I would not spend one second of my time once a woman has so blatantly exposed her ignorance that way with that person. You are allowed to move on redcatbiker "I just was a little bit surprised at the type of reactions that last blog entry produced that's all. It seemed to open the door for WM to become hyper judgemental of us- when the truth is that kind of diversity exists on both sides of the playing field". Anonymous,True the diversity does exist on both sides but I am yet to meet a WM in an IR forum/community expressing such diversity. Usually they are on other non IR blogs spewing their vile. I have come across those that see BW as simply sex objects but none yet that wants to marry a BW but not have kids with her but would rather have them with a WW. Anyone with such info is welcome to share it. Like I mentioned before I understand the urge for that sentiment which I also have harbored being strongly tied to my African cultural roots life would be alot simpler. I feel I have been tricked by nature not to desire men of my race and be intensely attracted to WM. I can't even force myself 'briefly' for the sake of reproduction. And the whole notion of carrying another man's children into another marrriage is culturally unacceptable for me. It happens but with alot of strain. So it is only natural for me to have children with the man I get married to whatever race he may be. For women of this postion you will be wise to be very tactful about how you send that message out. Or hold off on IRs until your reproductive days are over. The best choice for you is to put off reproduction completely and not mention the real reason. And LOVE the WM man you end up with (I hope this is a reasonable expectation). I think it's hard to underestimate how negative the image of the black woman is in minds of many American white men (singling out American because European guys seem to know what's up). When you ask your average white guy to imagine a black woman he is more likely to imagine the stereotypical unattractive loud-mouthed overly aggressive. 4-inch nail havin'-maury polvich- ghetto queen then say a gabrielle union or a sanaa lathan. Maybe I'm wrong but this is certainly true for the white men I've met in my life i totally agree with this ryan and have argued this on my blog in one of my first posts! when you ask wm to imagine bw they do indeed resort to negative stereotypes. Their imagination readily reaches for the type of woman you describe this might have a lot to do with wm knowing bw through media (and we know the type of images of bw the media prefers!)At that point there is a sudden 'disconnection' between 'black' and the lovely quiet bw with the beguiling smile that works in the accounts department. Maybe this also has to do with the reported ability of white people to 'exclude' certain black folks from the black category whcih they associate with all things negative like somenone mentioned on another blog wp do say things like. "i didnt mean you Sarah you are not like that' or when asked they admit that they dont really see their close black colleagues as black they are coloublind etc i belive this in part explains the issue of checking off all ethnicities but black because black immediately mean 'shanaynay'. Indeed you sometimes find these same men responding to personals of attractive bw and when they get confronted on their profile specifications they are totally stumped for what to respond i wonder what would happen if these sites had images or names like (oprah) as opposed to terms black white or asian anyway i guess bw could do without such 'shallow' thinking men but it does buttress the fact that sometimes white folk dont even understand their own responses and actions around race ie they dont really 'know themselves' around race at all! Hey Ryan--Thanks for your opinion! They were kind. And they reminded me of when I met my husband's parents and other family members for the first time. I asked my guy what they thought of me. He said that his parents liked me and said that I was "different." I'm assuming they had a stereotypical view of what a young black woman would be like (so did a few of his relatives.) But it's ok because they treat me very well and my husband is awesome. And I think you're right that whites (as well as all sorts of ethnic minorities in the U. S.) STILL have a hard time seeing black people as equally human and equally deserving of respect. It's so interesting. It is truly a legacy left from so many early American "forefathers" who worked really really hard to find every reason to keep whites superior and separate from everyone else (Native Americans blacks etc.) During the 40th anniversary of Loving v. Virginia this summer. I read an article that described how states felt the need to establish laws prohibiting IR marriage and child rearing because there was too much of it going on in early America. And of course no white person could marry a slave. And after slavery many in the U. S. (and lawmakers) were terrified and needed to continue to keep us separate. Now many whites and blacks are separate by choice. (And sadly many ethnic minorities see associating with blacks in friendship and love is a bad thing too. I've had a few friends from India who were 'disowned' for marrying black men and women.)I think the key to bw and wm getting together is that we should calmly give each other the benefit of the doubt early on. If the individual is indeed just using the other for sex (or if just like with same race couples the people have different goals for a relationship) then just move on. (I've noticed that some black women say they are afraid of being used for sex by white men. What about how black men use black women for sex and leave a trail of babies in their wake?! There IS a reason for our 70% singleness rate!!) ryan said: "I think it is important for black women to understand that even if many WM are still living in the dark many of us are not. And we outnumber you like 5 to 1 in this country so there is enough enlightened ones to go around. :p Please don't get discouraged by some ignorant fools and exclude all of us!"Thanks ryan for encouraging us and reminding us of our options. This needed to be said redcatbiker said: "To the the black women out there: If you are involved with a white man who finds black women attractive you can best be assured that your color your blackness is a turn-on for him. I don’t feel insulted by that. I like the look of the contrasting colors of our skin when our bodies are entwined trying to be one. Just because he digs the difference of his skin color against yours doesn’t mean he disrespects you as a person."This also needed to be said so thank you redcatbiker for bringing back some sanity and some HUMANITY into the mix. It's okay to be desired for our skin color and our looks. And as in every relationship things should deepen beyond that if the relationship is sincere. If it doesn't it's time to move on not to use the experience as some moral story about how IR relationships is just about fetishizataion!Grant said: "The fact that your mom likes wm but chooses to stay "in the closet" about it validates my feeling that a lot of bw in the 40-45+ age group are truly interested in wm but can't make the jump from how they feel to how they act."First let me concur with someone else who said you sound like a really sweet guy and I wish you luck in finding your bw Ms. Right. I also want to agree with redcatbiker who said that perhaps women in that age group are very new to this high-tech age and are testing the waters with online dating so there's a protective wall that goes up which means that when you don't have a face-to-face meeting to judge the other all you have to go on is stereotype and unfortunately for many BW the WM stereotype is based on that he's-a-racist-all-he-wants-a-bw-for-is-sex caricature which unfortunately too many WM (past and present) have established and there's NO alternative worldview going on not anywhere in the predominant media. It isn't even an issue of how BW are "invisible" to others with the example of the "anyone but black" profiles that so many men fill out. If it's just an issue of blondes and Asian girls are the "desired ones" in the culture then that's one thing. But the other fact remains that BW are NOT invisible in much of media they're all over the place and the message given is simple: these women (BW) are the "undesirables" and any man who desires those women are sexually perverted deviant destined to be a failure! THAT'S the image that's out there of BW. When we say we've been maligned we're not exaggerating!And if things are like that still can you IMAGINE what it was like back in the day? I'm in my 30s so can't speak for the 40+ year olds out there but not long ago there was a system called Jim Crow which was designed to dehumanize black people. The kind of responses you've gotten. Grant remind me that deep down. American blacks are still very traumatized people. Redcatbiker says to not bother with such an "ignorant" woman who would tell you that she's not going to sit in the back of a restaurant. Funny but that kind of comment does NOT sound like ignorance! That sounds like a woman in real pain who needs a lot of therapy. I don't think white people realize just how traumatic the effects of racism have been for us! And yes. I'm talking post-traumatic stress disorder y'all! I mean clinically traumatized!The black community expects us to "get over it," to overcome it because it's the only way for survival in a society that HATES you (and let's not pretend that there isn't genuine hatred for black people just on the basis of our skin color). Because we've been conditioned to believe that racism is this big gigantic hurdle that "we shall overcome," none of us have ever explored what it means once you've survived to now get some therapy and deal with the effects of having "survived." So it's not a surprise to me really that there are BW especially in an older age group who are walking around "damaged," saying things to well-meaning white guys such as yourself. Grant that they will "not sit in the back of a restaurant," or who said in the Kola Boof post (there goes another BW in need of therapy!) that they would never have a WM's child. This is generational TRAUMA people so we just need more sensitivity. But I tell you what. Grant and any other WM who's lurking and posting to this blog this doesn't mean that IR relationships are hopeless. And there are TWO things WM should remember to do if they ever date/marry a BW: 1. Affirm that she's pretty desirable beautiful.2. Fight racism wherever and whenever you encounter it (even if it comes up within the relationship). I think we all just need to know that deep down you guys have our backs (and will stroke it). I really liked the NYT article. I don't see how a woman who married a man of similar educational background and ambition who pined after her for YEARS and was willing to stand up to his father's disapproval could be described as settling. I think maybe the objection is that many bw here are saying they considered white/other race men as an option once they realized waiting for bm was a losing proposition. I always went to mostly white schools and my first crush was a white boy who was my best friend in school. But I still had to struggle for a long time with the idea of dating a white man. Would that make me the worst thing in the world- a sell-out self-hating black person? How could I ever speak out against racial injustice if I were with a white man? And on the other hand is the perception that white guys just aren't that into us. Who wants to go for guys who will never want them? Part of resolving that for me was resolving my own identity. I'm not black first or a woman first. I am both equally. The bc does not and agenda that considers what bw need for self-preservation or self-fulfillment so why should I be on board with that agenda? So it is not the case of me thinking wm/other race men were a consolation prize for bm who were not showing up. It was a process of giving myself permission to date them and realizing it did not make me an inauthentic black person to want to date them. It was a process of opening up to more options that were always valued not settling for someone I thought was "less-than". Anyway am I the only one who sees us missing out on an opportunity here? Why do I see only women's photos? I know you male lurkers like to look at the pics we want to see pics also! Why not take the 2 seconds to put up a blogger profile and then maybe you can be conversing with someone you think is cute instead of posting that you think they are cute! You already know the bw here are IR-friendly so that's no excuse for shyness! knockoutchick says:Great posts Shirl. Halima and Ryan!Thanks for that!I think one of the biggest roadblocks facing black AMERICAN women is perception and images. Though we have made great strides in terms of education and advancement we are still weighed down by negative images. As I believe Halima noted when many think of BW.. they think of "Shaynaynay". What I see happening in NY is that there are so many elegant and charming BW out here en masse who don't fit that stereotype it FORCES people to re-think. This is why I say those of us who are successful BW have to stay on top of the media.. friends who are in media etc. Which is why I love "What about out daughters". We need more black models actresses spokespersons and so on. I am so glad for little pleasures.. like the fact something as banal as ANTM is run by a black woman Tyra Banks otherwise we certainly would not see as many black models. I am always on top of WHITE friends in entertainment about the negative images of BW. It is amazing how many white people do not even notice these things they just accept them as the norm. I know most of these folks are not racist they have just accepted certain images and ways of thinking.."like OK if we want a funny commerical when need a fat black woman". I don't have to say this to the BW friends in media because they are already on it as we see with what recently went down at VH-1. But often many WP are not thinking about insidiousness of these negative images and how they effect people.. because these negative images do not effect THEM!I think as more and more BW keep doing as they have been and moving forward soon there will be more of us in media management and then WE can help put an end to this foolishness. As for right now to find a man that is free from complete immersion in this American media cesspool.. look to Europe and Canada I say! Grant,I am not over 40 but please allow me to try to explain the behavior of the ladies that you are encountering online. First this is typical behavior of online dating so please don't think that it's 'only because you're white'. (Although it could be part of it)1.) Many people LIE about themselves (age/height/weight,etc) online so when they realize that you want to meet them they realize that the game is over and they then disappear. I watched a college roommate do this over and over and am still shaking my head over that craziness.2.) Many people LIE about their availability status (they are married/in a relationship and bored and flirting online with you for kicks). So when you up the ante they are gone.3.) Many people are searching online for love because they are too frightened/painfully shy to open up and meet people in real life. The painful paradox is they find love but haven't addressed their fear/shyness and would rather bolt that meet someone in reality. From your prior posts. I can't believe that you would ever write anything vulgar or demeaning. I think that you are unfortunately at higher risk of meeting the above groups due to your age bracket. (A lot of younger people have a better handle on online dating). Also. I stand guilty of being fearful of online dating. After tons of research and chats with friends. I put an ad up to 'test the waters' a few months ago. Not shy by nature. I totally believed that I was ready to meet someone from the 'web-o-sphere'. I was positively shocked at the amount of responses -- especially wm -- who responded. I got stressed out the online thing felt unnatural and scary and I took the ad down in just a few days. So maybe online is not for everybody. Perhaps you could attend a nice black church.. and join a group in there -- there are PLENTY of lonely attractive. 40+ish single black women up in church. If you hang around for more than 6 months they will know you well enough to let their guard down and give you a chance. As far as age differences are concerned. I think this is also playing part in the reactions too. I notice that my mother's generation in general is harsher to women than they are to men. There are exceptions women who call it as they see it. And when their snappy one liners are delivered to women it's acceptable. When they do it with men they face more criticism. But if they do it and their actions are perceived to give wm a "reason to label," us they have crossed the IR PROMOTION LINE. Sexism is one of my pet peeves. I know it exists in other communities but I think because of our choice to deal with oppression through promoting the male the BC has taken this thing to a whole new level. I expect that for many women this mindset will follow into their new relationships. The danger in this transfer is that this woman has now re-defined what a man is in her romantic life- he's non black. So on average any white guy who expresses vitriol or ignorance is likely to have his comments left in the dust by the anger directed at black women by black women. In the hopes of keeping him around this type of lady is much more likely to lose sight of the fact that she does not need to cater to anyone to keep them interested. And any guy who expresses the willingness to accept us as individuals (what they should have done in the first place) That guy is going to be praised to high heaven. If you reward expected behaviors you will attract those who want something for nothing. I consider myself polite but I do believe people stand to degrade themselves by being a little too generous at times.. A little to afraid of rocking the boat. Let's rock the damn boat lol. My aim is to get rid of those not strong enough to stand the force of the waves because they would only have played on the insecurities of women who are already vulnerable. I'm a woman who loves women and wants them to end up with the guy they may not have thought was available to them or the guy who their previous experiences have not even allowed them to fathom exists. I think we all need to examine our reactions to things and keep an open mind when thinking of how gender the bc standards and promoting IR plays a role there. I know some of us think we are paving the way for more men to feel welcome. But when you attract one type of guy. whatever attracted him is likely to turn off the guy who is very different from him. So what type of men do we really want to feel welcome on IR blogs? "Nice guys" may not abandon the cause. But in their pursuit of a partner you will likely go into one of two categories; the person who he will couch his approach with by formality and selective word choice in response to the exceptional level of courtesy she has shown him. or the person he can engage with completely because she is willing to challenge others without seeming unfair. This type of selection is not always conscious.. But the people who aren't afraid of a little controversy and almost feel like it's necessary to get to the bottom of things will feel more connected to women that don't work extra hard for acceptance. That type is perceptive and the reasons for certain behaviors aren't as invisible as we may think they are.. with the NICE guy anyways. I think the reason that Kola Boof will always have nice guys nice people in general befriend her is that she is honest. People distance themselves from unanticipated pain probably more so than they do from the real thing. Actions that take place out of fear are in a way a type of manipulation. I define nice people as those smart enough to imagine themselves in another person's shoes. Our behaviors are being examined from that viewpoint-by the nice ones. So. with them their are few secrets. People who are coming from a different vantage point will probably not be very good partners. And people that would be good partners are not available to women who manipulate even when there is genuinely a good cause at the basis of her actions. Sound ridiculous but the woman who doesn't compromise is not likely to become a spinster. The opposite is true. hi Granthokay... BW over 40 signing in... grrr I hate highlighting my age but hey it's for a good cause!You sound like a very sincere and personable guy. which in my view is worth a lot to any reasonable female. If I recall from lurking on Halima's blog you asked why a BW took a long pause before accepting your compliment about her hair. Halima I think suggested that the lady was "processing" your compliment because of implicit issues (race hair gender). Seriously Grant here is my take though I'm no expert: possibly the BW you're drawn to are the more conservative ones PLUS your desired age group are likely to be those who[a] need de-programming ie partly resistant or hesitant to IR date and being over 40 could mean most are quite set in their ways about life already [b] make up a large segment of the 70% BW singles remember they've not dated (properly) since slice bread was invented. If ever. I mean seriously there's an element of ignorance about how a man approaches a woman about dating inc various nuances. This ignorance is likely when you've been off the trail a long time. I think Evia addressed this point when she wrote about 'Evaluating Men' or something like that.[c] are new to online anything inc dating which itself necessitates more caution than offline. As such your approach online / offline may require build in some acknowledgement of their possible inhibitions around race and socialising interracially. Now I'm not saying that you need to tell them that some of your ".. best friends are black" which may be true but that phrase has been abused. And please dont put up pictures of you with only black people or with your black ex like some WM do on some IR dating sites. Hmmm moving on... My suggestions: you seem good at charming conversation online by finding common topics of interest acc to your post above. Keep doing that it's always the way to draw people out. Also continue to pay compliments about specific points on their looks (face skin tone)and their personality (eg sense of humour choice of jewelry in pics). Everyone responds well to compliments generally only that older women may have 'heard it