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British citizens Rowan Trezise. 33 and Richie Trezise. 35 are living apart as she tries desperately to shed the pounds needed to comply with New Zealand guidelines that immigrants maintain a healthy BMI or body mass index. BMI is a weight-height ratio that estimates percentage of body fat. The New Zealand Immigration Service requires all applicants to undergo a complete medical examination which includes body size measures like “waist circumference.” The regulations were supposedly put into place for budget reasons. The country’s health care system cannot afford to open its doors to overweight immigrants a spokesman for New Zealand’s Fight the Obesity Epidemic explained to the Daily Mail. Another wondrous bonus gift that comes with socialized healthcare: Pretty soon the “free” healthcare will be rationed off to only those individuals approved by the Almighty State. Of course the fact that you can’t GET the “free” healthcare because you’re not a government-approved specimen of the human race doesn’t mean that you won’t have to PAY for it via your taxes. Oh and other than that the BMI is a certified crock. Not the way it’s calculated but the way the “approved range” is defined by the Powers that Be. Just like the “approved cholesterol range” which has magically changed downward every time the pharmaceutical companies have come out with a new statin drug or just didn’t like their volume of sale. Oh yes nationalized healthcare is a wonderful idea. Under that the government gets to define who gets to go to the doctor and when and we all know that the government is only here to help right? This entry was posted on Saturday. November 17th. 2007 at 4:21 PM and is filed under. . You can follow any responses to this entry through the feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed. Deej. Deej is it just a habit or what that you so reflexively attempt to defend indefensible communist crap with OFF TOPIC stuff that is totally unrelated? We’re talking about GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE in New Zealand. You bring up insurance in America. That has absolutely NO relationship to the topic at hand. All you accomplish is to prove that insurance in America is screwed up too… and it wasn’t like we didn’t already know that… The main finding in this large-scale study is that accurately measured percent fat overall is not associated as strongly as WC with indicators of obesity-related health risks. Now. New Zealand can do whatever it pleases. But here’s the inequity: I’m 6′4″. 220 pounds and my BMI is 27 — overweight but not obese. I’d qualify for immigration and I’ve never had a bit of difficulty qualifying for health and life insurance. However. I have a strong family history of coronary artery disease and diabetes. I work out routinely and take three medications to address my horrid-looking lipid profile and my hypertension. I can point you in the direction of any number of obese individuals who don’t share my concerns. Perhaps the Kiwis should demand a family history and DNA sample (to be evaluated for diabetes hyperlipidemia alcoholism and other risk markers) and stratify exclude on that basis. It seems more scientific and fair. After all the problem with eugenics was that they just didn’t have adequate technology to make it work back then. The Slippery Slope Fallacy is only a fallacy when we stipulate that other side is rational honest and will act with integrity. (… something Neville Chamberlain should have borne in mind…) Governments seldom make the grade. If you want to become completely creeped out get a copy of. (Bet ya didn’t know that the death camp killings were all medically-supervised “euthanasias” carried out in the name of “racial hygene.”) MoriartyThanks! I have a big stack of books threatening to fall over and kill me but this looks really important. It’s tempting just to order it from Amazon. Spouse runs a large bookstore and gets a big discount but getting him to get anything for me is liking pulling teeth. I think I’ll go with Amazon. You are against Government health care and are using the actions of New Zealand as yet another reason to dislike it. I get that. I only pointed out that under our current system of health care for the sake of profit people are routinely denied health care for the same reasons. So yes there is a distinct relationship here. We do it under our private. HMO for profit system they do it under their government-run system. It isn’t a “gotcha” reason to dislike a government-run health care system. I am sure you could find another reason but this isn’t one of them. As far as my comment about YOU wanting immigrants to conform to values practices and customs of Americans. New Zealanders also have the right to require immigrants to their country conform to values practices and customs there. If you want me to give a health related example then I could do that as well. We turn down people coming into this country for a myriad of health reasons. In this particular story though if you want to take advantage of New Zealand’s government-provided health care as an immigrant then you had better do something about your weight. Besides why does any of this bother anyone here? Were you planning on immigrating to New Zealand? Yeah nice thing about socialized health care. Just ask the Canadians coming here to get treated. Or the folks in England told they have three months left to live and their surgery is scheduled six months from now. Yep good thing socialized health care lousy for everybody. I’d rather have my taxes cover those that can’t or won’t pay as they do now. You can bet your bottom dollar or euro or yen that those foisting these policies upon us do not have to live by them as witnessed by our own government. BMI is a load of crap anyway. When I was in the Corps there was a Marine who was a former pro-linebacker (New England I think my memory fails me) who was pure muscle solid as a rock. He was put on weight control and his career threatened because his BMI said he was overweight. There was another Marine who was a power lifter. Also pure muscle also put on weight control because his BMI was wrong. Yep. Just don’t complain when Hillary’s Health Police tell you that you’re denied care because your BMI is 2 points over some arbitrary limit and they cite some low N to show that they have right idea on dealing with health care costs since “it worked in New Zealand.” BMI?!?! I am certified underweight. every jewish mother including those whose daughters I dated and broke up with wants to feed me and feed me OY! Deej yes insurance company’s are private company’s and can deny whoever the hell they want. they denied me too. so you know what my dad did ? he went back to being a pharmacist from the medical equiptment biz which yes made more but CVS provides me with FREE gratis aetna health care… mi glasses were free too (300$) As another example of this sort of crap. I met a young lady recently who is currently active service. Army who was informed that she had a choice of losing twenty pounds or being denied reenlistment. This girl is DENSE (bodily speaking) she lifts. She’s about 5′4″ and around 135lbs. And could probably bench press ME for about 50 reps. No body fat. (other than the usual female type locations) but she is “overweight”. Isn’t this the same crap coming from people screaming you can’t discriminate against overweight people? I’ve known some fat dudes and they were stronger than hell. This sorta reminds me of the big bruhaha raised in San Francisco when that billboard went up… GuidoIt’s wrong but it’s the BMI thing that screws super-muscular people. Muscle weighs more than fat so it seems like they are heavy for their size. They should use a body fat measurement scale to double-check in cases like that but there probably isn’t a standard for that. What’s next? Is Eugenics on the rise?I looked at one definition: Eugenics is a social philosophy which advances the improvement of human heredity traits through various forms of INTERVENTION. Jeez all of this sound Orwellian to me and led by the PCP police. It’s wrong but it’s the BMI thing that screws super-muscular people. Muscle weighs more than fat so it seems like they are heavy for their size. They should use a body fat measurement scale to double-check in cases like that but there probably isn’t a standard for that. There is but it’s harder to look at than a height/weight chart. It would require like. I dunno some THOUGHT on the part of some useless feckless ambitionless anonymous drone in an office somewhere. The stupid part of all this crap in the military is that if a soldier/sailor/airman/Marine can’t make the PT standards they are gonna be out anyway. Why worry about the fact that some of the people that are being dumped are some of the most dedicated people in the military? The decision can be made on the basis of information that can be gathered in thirty seconds with equipment that is sitting in every medical office on every military post and station in the world. As another example of this sort of crap. I met a young lady recently who is currently active service. Army who was informed that she had a choice of losing twenty pounds or being denied reenlistment. This girl is DENSE (bodily speaking) she lifts. She’s about 5′4″ and around 135lbs. And could probably bench press ME for about 50 reps. You could ask me because I go UP THERE for my medical. It doesn’t cost me anything and I actually get in to see a doctor faster than I would if I had my treatments down here. Canada actually pays for my physical therapy down here since it is closer to where I live. I would be 100 percent uninsurable down here in the United States due to my pre-existing medical conditions. In other words. I would have been dead several years ago if I had to rely on the great HMO medical scam here in the US. Usually if you are told you have only three months to live your case is terminal and there is no surgery in the world that is going to save you. I don’t know where you are getting this information but it sounds a bit suspicious. I don’t care what kind of medical system you have — there is no way you are going to “save” everyone. But of all the first world industrial countries in the world this is the only one that has forty million people without medical insurance because they simply cannot afford it due to a medical system whose sole mission is to turn a profit not provide medical coverage. Do you want to know one of the major reasons many of the jobs have been leaving the US? It is because of the high cost of health insurance. Most businesses don’t want that extra expense per employee which can be as much as $10-$12 an hour more per employee. What was the GM and Chrysler strikes about? Health care. It is exactly the reason why Republicans are going to lose in a big way this next election. The question is do we want a Hillary health care plan that favors the insurance companies and winds up costing each of us through the nose or do we want one of the other plans that expands medicare or medicaid? You know. I don’t want to be too argumentative. However upon further thought I don’t think this is as stupid or fascist as it might seem immediately. I am very obese (about 80 lb is from drug interactions) so I am well aware of the conditions that can result: increased cancer(s) heart disease diabetes dementia. An increase in obesity adds tremendously to the cost of health care in this country (direct medical costs $93 billion). I don’t think it’s that horrible to exclude obese people and that would include me. There are lots of problems with the BMI measurements but you can’t argue excessive weight (which does not appear to be the case in Misha’s example) Insurance companies will decline coverage for things like athlete’s foot in the US so it would not surprise me if they did screen out obese people. I have no experience with nationalized health care systems but I could never in a million years get my own insurance policy here: MANY conditions. I’m on spouse’s work policy which periodically stops paying my claims. It’s enough to make me paranoid (wait–I was already). Yeah you could extend to race and smokers but it doesn’t seem like they have yet. I am married to a smoker–I don’t think they are evil. Actually what also worries me in this country is insurance companies getting the results of genetic screening that indicates a predisposition for a disease and denying coverage based on that. the crazy thing about this is that the weight range was changed a few years back to make more people over weight when i got married i weighed 130 lbs at 5′9″ my wife is a dietician and show me weight range charts putting me 25lbs underweight. 22 years later i weigh 170 and am overweight where the old charts would put me low normal admittedly i have put on a lot of fat from inactivity but i am too lazy to care here is a link to a My wife is Canadian and members of her family come here for treatment for various ailments. And it’s strictly out of pocket. Most still prefer the Canadian system…but I think that’s because they can afford to come here for the long waiting list stuff. My brother-in-law wants to come back here to be a radiologist because he thinks that people there often get short shrift. He’s concerned that the Canadian system will decay to British National Death Service levels. And he works in that to you I’m sure abomination. Alberta. And here in the US we try heroic measures to save people. My wife’s grandfather was sent to hospice to die. Not worth the cost to fight what was killing him. Two months later he was sent home in remission but with no further treatment. Eighteen months later he died. In the US he might have had a chance. But in your socialistic fuck all world he was simply too costly. So don’t peddle you bullshit when people have certain knowledge that it isn’t the panacea that you claim it be. Allyn. It just makes you look stupid. The stupid part of all this crap in the military is that if a soldier/sailor/airman/Marine can’t make the PT standards they are gonna be out anyway. Why worry about the fact that some of the people that are being dumped are some of the most dedicated people in the military? The decision can be made on the basis of information that can be gathered in thirty seconds with equipment that is sitting in every medical office on every military post and station in the world. I’m taking you up on that bet. Prove that the Canucks getting treated here are sponsored by the maple leaf gubmint (not including token PR stunts (sending here a high-profile heart tugging case). When you lose this bet you will wear one of your Che’ shirts in the front row of a Hannity Freedom Concert™ The BMI is a crude money saving tool used by insurers. They even promote it’s use. There’s always some fluff piece on the news or internet about how to calculate it. But it WAAAAY overestimates the obesity epidemic. At 6′1″ 185. I’m considered at risk or pre obese or whatever term that particular article chooses. Yet. I’m very very fit and thankfully know better than these numbskulls. But still follow the money: If you have a fallacious guideline (BMI) that makes people pay extra to get coverage then you promote the fallacy ceaselessly until people believe it. Horseshit !!! The big automakers see Universal Health Care as an easy out to fund their retiree health benefits that were negotiated by the unions and they foolishly accepted. UHC is a win-win for them because they (and other large companies) believe they’ll immediately be able to dump their retirees into the government system. to make health-care an issue but I don’t see enough people to buy into it to make much of a difference. I work for a small company (<30 employees) and aggressive shopping has kept health-care costs reasonable yeah they’re up a bit but it’s not bankrupting the company or the employees. This election cycle is going to be about Homeland Security and the WoT. The left knows it and also knows that it’s their soft-white underbelly. They’ve bent over for the socialist frothing moon-bat wing of the party on the war and won’t be able to reframe the “issues” into the same old domestic class-warfare playbook and pull it off. Catch-22 for the Left. As to the Canadian system. Red can give you all the horror-stories you want. Her brother developed heart troubles leading to an MI. He was put on a waiting list to see a Cardiologist SIX months after the first heart attack. He suffered at least THREE more during that period and Thank G_d he survived them. Her mother showed a lung mass on a routine X-Ray she waited months for an MRI and then months more to see a Pulmonologist to determine a course of treatment. Next fer instance. Her mom recently took a serious fall she went to the hospital and they determined she had ruptured a spinal disc and displaced a vertebrae. Treatment? “Oh you don’t need to be hospitalized just go home and take it easy”. That’s an injury that has a significant risk of paralysis without definitive in-patient treatment for a geriatric patient. Many residents of B. C travel to the Seattle area for scripts and treatment and NO their BC Care Card does NOT pay for it. Even if the Canadian government paid for some of the treatment and in most cases I seriously doubt it,,,,,why should an individual have to elave the country in the first place to receive critical medical attention? Profit driven companies have created miracles of technology saving lives… and yes treatment often very expensive. That’s what insurance is for. Personally I wouldn’t blame any parent going to any lengths to save their child’s life insurance of not. I would do the same. I remember standing over my wife thanking God for insurance she on life support. ICU tubes running down her nose in her veins a computer maintaining her vital functions as massive does of vancomycyn were administered. The doctors pulled out the stops saving her life told me she was young and strong. She was thirty then she is fifty now… yet I remember it as if it were yesterday. And I thanked God for the minds and hands that developed and built those machines and medications… the ones often purchased by governments with socialist heath care policies. My own (admittedly limited) experience with Canadian patients leads me to conclude the following: The Canadian system is fine if you have a case of the sniffles or some other self-limited minor problem. If you have something life-threatening and urgent. You’re in for a long wait. (Unless you’re a of course.) Canadians who can afford it carry their catastrophic coverage in the US. Those who don’t roll the dice wait and hope for the best not infrequently dying in the process. need. And as allegedly compassionate some claim socialist health care to be… it is here in the states where someone will get treated for emergency situations and often the bill is written off. Yes you owe and often bankruptcy is the result. But I have waited for hours in emergency rooms while illegals and non English speaking people were treated. So in a very real sesne we do have socialized medical care here… for illegal immigrants. I’m living on disability and my wife can’t work. I get coverage she doesn’t. She eneds knee replacement the L. A. County health care system has taken three years to determine she needs a knee replacement and put her in for the surgery which still has not been actually scheduled. MoriartyWould that be rude to ask you a brief professional question? If it’s okay could you e-mail me at tetrodotoxin2 yahoo? (newly diagnosed–not sure how much to worry about extreme symptoms) other options for info have problems. If you need any advice on plants plant compounds or fungi that’s about all I have to trade. You probably know all about the medicinal plant compounds. Speaking of fungi there is some really interesting info on fungal poisoning hallucinations witch trials. LSD. Peter the Great’s army socialist food distribution and The X-Files (all related to the one fungus). If anyone is interested you have my e-mail address. Jackbootsorry about your wife’s relatives’ experiences. 6 months for a cardiologist after a heart attack? in the US. If you think New Zealand’s heath care is out of line just wait to see what we end up with Hillary. into its socialized healthcare program. It didn’t say anything about whether it applies that same criteria towards its citizens or not. I am also not sure whether New Zealand is as “heavy-set” as people from the United States where there are people who are — by any criteria you choose to use — well. overweight. Get over it or lose some weight. If you got “Furniture’s Disease” (where your chest has slipped into your drawers) then you are probably fat. If you haven’t seen “down there” for a while or you fall on your face trying to see your toes then you might be a bit too fat. I don’t mean to be condescending or heartless here. I am just stating a fact. I could easily fit into the fat category as well. I know it isn’t politically correct to refer to someone as being “fat” any more — to be “polite” we use euphemisms such as “big-boned” or “big-framed” to describe people who probably should cut back on the big bowl of ice cream while they sit on the couch watching TV. None of what I just said endorses the BMI scale which is just an excuse for insurance companies to charge higher premiums or deny payments for what they see as “unhealthy choices”. Sometimes being I hate to break this to you but I am a Canadian citizen. I recently had major surgery — in British Columbia and I get my followup treatments right here in the United States — and it is paid for by (wait for it…) the Canadian government health care system. But in your socialistic fuck all world he was simply too costly. So don’t peddle you bullshit when people have certain knowledge that it isn’t the panacea that you claim it be. Allyn. It just makes you look stupid. Yet I am still alive after four remissions four surgeries and what would have been several million dollars of care right here in the US that probably would have been denied by the insurance companies. this fairy tale you fucking idiot stick. Unlike you who pulled your entire opinion out of your ample ass. I actually have the experience of having to deal with BOTH medical systems in a big way. Come back to see me when you’ve had three organs a rib and several tumors removed. Tell me how that went for you down here in the US. Tell me how you were able to do it AFTER the insurance companies all turned you down for coverage years earlier because of your pre-existing illnesses. Tell me about it when the insurance company decides that whatever procedure the doctors say you need is considered to be “experimental” and therefore not covered — even though it is a procedure that has been commonly used for years. I lost a friend a few years ago who had been denied a liver transplant because he didn’t have insurance. His brother was a perfect match for partial liver transplant but just before the surgery was going to be performed the insurance company denied the claim then dropped him. Because twenty-six years earlier when he was in college he had been admitted to the hospital after getting drunk and falling over a retaining wall. He broke his leg in the fall. Because he failed to mention the fact that he had been drunk at the time he went to the hospital for a broken leg the insurance company promptly dropped his coverage saying that alcohol HAD to be the pre-existing cause of his failed liver. I am not one of those high-profile heart tugging cases. I just recently had surgery up in British Columbia and I get followup visits done right down here in the Seattle area — including physical therapy. ALL of it is paid for by the Canadian health care system. UHC is a win-win for them because they (and other large companies) believe they’ll immediately be able to dump their retirees into the government system. employees as well. The only real companies against UHC is the insurance companies who have spent billions of dollars convincing people lke you that UHC is a bad thing and misrepresent UHC in other countries as “failures”. Are there problems with UHC systems in the other industrialized countries? Sure. There are problems with ANY system. But by and large. MOST of the system works. The problem here in the US is that our health care system is driven by profits over health care. An insurance payout is considered to be a “medical loss”. Medical case reviewers are rewarded for “saving” money by denying cases. It all depends on the particular surgical or therapeutic treatment required. If you need a knee replacement — sure you might wait up to six months for that. You might wait that long here if not longer. But if your case is like mine — surgery now or die — then it is surgery NOW with no wait. It is all about case prioritizing. Yes everyone likes to think that THEIR case is the most important one. THEIR ailments are more important than the other guy’s. Because of that you will have some disgruntled people to complain about their “long waits” in a “fucked up health care system”. I hear that right here at home. My roommate had back surgery in May and knee surgery in July. He waited almost a year for it and now that he’s had it he is STILL complaining about how “fucked up” the system is. Not only that he has been on medical leave from Boeing since he was injured there over a year ago. He will be going back next month and he expects to be let go because of his claim. 3) Do you always get your medical care done in the emergency room? Why don’t YOU have medical insurance? Like I stated above. I have been living this healthcare fairy tale for a very long time. It is costly to maintain a residence in two countries just so that I can afford medical care when I need it. I am lucky in MY situation because I have dual citizenship and can legally hold residence in both countries simultaneously. As I said above there are going to be problems with every medical “system” and there are going to be some trade-offs. Can I point to negative ones in the MSP Care system? Sure. But over all. I have found that where I can get care through BC. I cannot get care through the US unless I pay for it out of pocket. Many of the people who travel down from BC don’t want to wait for medical care so they DO come down here to the US and pay out of pocket. But they certainly aren’t going to pay for major surgery down here out of pocket and they aren’t going to have to wait in a line in BC to have it done either. I assume you’re asking in general and not me right? The Major knew which is no surprise. I have this right wing death beast debating partner. He hasn’t said anything but he’s obviously done something covert. Weird stuff will come up and I’ll ask him how he knows that and there will be silence. He knows what tetrodotoxin is. I don’t know whether to write that off as being very knowledgable or something more nefarious. One…no they came in after me…every one of them. And no they were not in greater difficulty. Not if you walk in. I had to help my daughter in not being able to breathe does that. The receptionist had difficulty speaking English. And yes as far as I could tell. I speaking limited Spanish…I was the ONLY one asked if I had insurance!Two as often as necessary. When your wife or daughter suffers a severe asthma attack you do not wait. Regardless of time of day. Three…no. I do not. Yes. I have medical insurance. Quit making assumptions. See now that is a different spin on it when you say it is the Canadian government health care system Because I have been a citizen here in the US just as long and it would be nice if this country would catch up to the rest of the world when it comes to how health care is provided. Fifteen years ago people were not ready for single-payer Universal Health Care. Things have changed and the majority of people in this country WANT to have a change in how our health care is provided. Ever since Edgar Kaiser lobbyed John Ehrlichman to get the Nixon Administration behind the Health Management Organizations (HMO) our health care system has been steadily getting worse. If you don’t believe that this has been a set up all along don’t listen to me listen to. It is a bad recording and it is very hard to hear what they are saying so here is the official transcript: Ehrlichman: —we have now narrowed down the vice president’s problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says. “Well. I don’t think they’ll work but if the president thinks it’s a good idea. I’ll support him a hundred percent.” President Nixon: Say that I—I—I’d tell him I have doubts about it but I think that it’s uh now let me ask you now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not to keen on any of these damn medical programs. Ehrlichman: Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can—the reason he can do it—I had Edgar Kaiser come in—talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care because— Nixon was against the idea of the government providing health care — like virtually every other industrialized country in the world. This was a program he could get behind — private sector making profits and giving the illusion of providing health care on par or better than any other country in the world. But he knew from the onset that the reality is in order for the private sector to make any money they had to provide LESS health care by systematically denying legitimate claims. But it didn’t stop him from addressing Congress and the country the next day about his bold new National Health Strategy: Richard NixonSpecial Message to the Congress Proposing a National Health StrategyFebruary 18th. 1971To the Congress of the United States: In the last twelve months alone. America’s medical bill went up eleven percent from $63 to $70 billion. In the last ten years it has climbed 170 percent from the $26 billion level in 1960. Then we were spending 5.3 percent of our Gross National Product on health; today we devote almost 7% of our GNP to health expenditures. This growing investment in health has been led by the Federal Government. In 1960. Washington spent $3.5 billion on medical needs–13 percent of the total. This year it will spend $21 billion–or about 30 percent of the nation’s spending in this area. For most Americans the result of our expanded investment has been more medical care and care of higher quality. A profusion of impressive new techniques powerful new drugs and splendid new facilities has developed over the past decade. During that same time there has been a six percent drop in the number of days each year that Americans are disabled. Clearly there is much that is right with American medicine. But there is also much that is wrong. One of the biggest problems is that fully 60 percent of the growth in medical expenditures in the last ten years has gone not for additional services but merely to meet price inflation. Since 1960 medical costs have gone up twice as fast as the cost of living. Hospital costs have risen five times as fast as other prices. For growing numbers of Americans the cost of care is becoming prohibitive. And even those who can afford most care may find themselves impoverished by a catastrophic medical expenditure. I live this fairy tale you fucking idiot stick. Unlike you who pulled your entire opinion out of your ample ass. I actually have the experience of having to deal with BOTH medical systems in a big way. Come back to see me when you’ve had three organs a rib and several tumors removed. Tell me how that went for you down here in the US. Listen asshat. You fucking lied. So don’t get all pissy on me when I call you on it. That isn’t true. Allyn and you know it. I have Canadian relatives who had to come here for stints. BEeause the waiting line was too long and they would have become a medical risk if they waited any longer. And they paid for it out of pocket. You got good treatment? Good on ya! Lot’s don’t there. Many don’t here. Life isn’t fair but painting a rosy picture when none exists _is_ a fairy tale. And it’s your’s skippy. American Senior Citizens are waving to sick Canadians as one goes north for cheap meds and the other goes south for vital surgery. In fact. Liberal MP Belinda Stronach went to California for breast cancer treatment. We don’t know exactly _why_ she had to go to California except that it’s a private matter and since the Canadian Government didn’t pay for it it is well private. As Canadian Commenter points out: Gerald SkowronskiUnless the Canadian taxpayer paid for Stronach’s surgery we have no business trying to find out the details of this intensely personal situation. I may not agree with her political tactics but her personal life is her own. Moreover when _some_ Canadians come to the US for treatment they have to fight Canadian Bureaucrats to get paid. Hmmmm just like the Managed Healthcare folks here. When Hillarycare became big news in the early 90’s much was made of the people coming south for treatment. At that time it was more with only several thousands of “medical refugees” heading south each year(Most of whom paid out of pocket. Allyn). This is changing. Particularly because when many of these studies were conducted the dollar was very strong. (Both that paper and a Frazer Institute report from the late 90’s). However with the Yankee Dollar now worth less than the Loony and the increasing failures of the (following the politics in Saskatchewan now. Allyn) this is changing and.. Particularly when in 1999 Cancer Center Ontario entered into a contract with Detroit’s Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute to treat Canadians. One of the _rare_ cases where the Canadian Government has _paid_ for it’s citizens to get treatment…assuming they could afford to live here But in all these papers. Allyn the over riding reason that more Canadians don’t go South for surgery is because they have to pay for it out of pocket. Not at all what you said. In the mid 90’s studies indicate that only few thousand came South for treatment most How in the fuck did I lie? Did you lack basic reading skills when I mentioned that I am a living breathing example of being re-embursed by the MSP? I don’t give a rats rusty fuck whether you have relatives who haven’t figured out how to get the government to rebate their medical costs. Calling ME a liar because they don’t get re-embursed for their expenses is assinine. You are obviously ignorant of the entire system or there is something you are telling us about. Are your people even signed up with MSP and have a CareCard and/or a PharmaCard? Or did they just throw their hands up and surrender so they could come down here for their medical needs? It really makes no fucking difference to me one way or the other. I know what I get and I have no problems. You got good treatment? Good on ya! Lot’s don’t there. Many don’t here. Life isn’t fair but painting a rosy picture when none exists _is_ a fairy tale. And it’s your’s skippy. Maybe because your relatives are painting a bleak picture is the reason you tend to believe the worse. The reality is whole lot different. I don’t know the story as to why your relatives feel the need to head South for their medical — did I mention that I don’t care? Whatever reason they have is their own. I think I mentioned this above but if I didn’t. I will now. Medical ailments and the medical care associated with those ailments is subjective. Some people have bad experiences with their medical providers/insurance companies and there is nothing that is ever going to change their minds about their perception once they feel they’ve been ‘burned’. I can only go with MY own experiences with the Canadian. British. American. Israeli and German health care systems. I have dealt with them all. Each have their good points each have their bad. I would rather be here in the US for my medical but economics prevents me from doing so. Luck of birth allows me to take advantage of the Canadian system which also allows me much cheaper prescription drugs. I just had my recent surgery up in BC at St Paul’s. I guess I was one of those “waving people”. The thing is. I wasn’t the only American in the hospital getting surgery. I found six Americans who checked in for surgery at the same time I did. I don’t know how they were getting their procedures but apparently it isn’t all that uncommon. We don’t know exactly _why_ she had to go to California except that it’s a private matter and since the Canadian Government didn’t pay for it it is well private. As Canadian Commenter points out: Maybe as a public figure she didn’t want her medical history strewn all over the papers? Maybe she needed a specialist that only could be found in California. Her reasons are HER reasons which may or may not have a damn thing to do with her perception of or the healthcare of Canada at all. Maybe she wanted to combine hospital with vacation. Did she go to Disneyland? I can only speak from MY experiences. I have no problems getting re-embursed for my costs down here. In fact. I was just commenting to my wife the other day that I am actually making a slight profit because of the exchange rate between the US and Canadian dollar at the moment. But in all these papers. Allyn the over riding reason that more Canadians don’t go South for surgery is because they have to pay for it out of pocket. Not at all what you said. I notice that much of your “papers” are directly or indirectly from the Fraser Institute which is a Conservative think tank set up to tear down the basic liberal structure of Canada. Canada has its Conservatives also. They just aren’t as prevalent as they are here. I also think that there is a little “grass is greener on the other side of the fence” syndrome going on with some people in Canada. They think that just because they have to wait for a whopping 18.3 weeks up there that things are going to be magically different down here. I know people who are waiting for teeth cleaning for six months right here in Lynnwood. It took me a whole year to have my teeth pulled for dentures. As terrible as you and your relatives think the Canadian health care system is chew on these facts for a moment: Canada has a mortality rate of 7.86 individuals per 1000. The United States has a 8.26 per 1000 rating. By comparison. Mexico has a mortality rate of only 4.76 per 1000. People are dropping like flies in Swaziland at the rate of 30.35 per 1000 and the best place to be is the United Arab Emirates because they shed people at the rate of 2.16 per 1000\ Oh and the source for this information comes from the just so you know I didn’t pull if from one of my “Liberal Resource Books” I am the only reputable source I need on this. You might not like it but as I’ve said earlier — I don’t really care. The point is. I have a very personal stake in this and I am much more of an expert when it comes to MY medical experiences than YOU are. I would also venture to say that I am much more of an expert at dealing with the medical systems of four countries than you are. I can tell you that both Britain and Germany have their pluses but that overall expertise is much better here in the US. The medical services in Canada are comparable to those here in the US and for ME they are much better because you aren’t having to rely on the HMO or an insurance company whose only motivation is profit. I know that the Nixon address to Congress is a bit long. But if you read what the Ehrlichman/Nixon conversation said the day before you get a fairly good idea how the health care system really runs here in the US. Certainly there are waiting lists but rest assured that if your case is serious and does require IMMEDIATE action you will get it. Yes some of our citizens do go down to your country form some form of treatment or another that’s a fact. Some do not want to wait easily understood! And yes. Canada Health Care System is ENTIRELY run by the government. However keeping in mind that some hospitals are busier than others there is a tendency towards long waiting periods in our “emergency” rooms however should a patient come in with a real emergency (i e bad car accident victim) the staff will address this issue immediately. DJ as a Canadian citizen is entitled to reimbursment for his care plain and simple. Keep in mind also that a Canadian specialist might recommend his patient receive specialized care in the US which in some rare cases will be paid for by our government. Now not ALL treatments and services are paid for or reimbursed. Should a patient choose to go to Florida for instance because there is a center there which treats the problem faster than our own hospitals and that same patient can receive the same treatment here but at a later date this is not reimbursed nor paid for. Only the very wealthy seem to avail themselves of treatments and services offered by your clinics which is understandable. They can afford not to wait… To play the devil’s advocate and although nobody likes to wait for anything. I find our medical staff to be doing an extremely good job under the circumstances. I live in New Brunswick and received excellent care whenever such care was needed (i e broke a bone in my hand once… took less than two hours from admission to discharge…). Please don’t think that our hospitals are cold uncaring establishments just because we have state sponsored health care it would be far from the truth. That being said our politicians do NOT go to regular hospitals. They are sent to the National Defence Medical Center in Ottawa one of the world’s best equipped staffed and administered hospital. No waiting in line with the “masses” for their care… With all due respect what the f**k is this? I’ve always respected your opinions because you seemed above the fray. To paraphrase”St Ronnie” (as you sarcastically call him) said. “There he goes again…” What gives? Are you alright? If you’re feeling terrible (which I would understand completely) then quit poking sticks in the hornet’s nest. And if you do don’t be surprised and pissed off at the reactions you get around here. Damn man at least BC had that LOL emoticon at the end of his comment to you. As terrible as you and your relatives think the Canadian health care system is chew on these facts for a moment: Canada has a mortality rate of 7.86 individuals per 1000. The United States has a 8.26 per 1000 rating. By comparison. Mexico has a mortality rate of only 4.76 per 1000. Thank you for your considered epidemiological opinion. Dr. Allyn. Rest assured that the public health community is anxiously awaiting the advance draft of your magnum opus entitled “Two Centuries of Abject Statistical Idiocy: Why Correlation Really I notice that much of your rebuttal concerns a conversation and a 36-year-old speech from the same man who presided over the imposition of a national 55-mile-an-hour speed limit wage-and-price controls. “stagflation” burgeoning unemployment a devalued dollar unprecedented surcharges on foreign imports an adjusted inflation rate of 12.2% — and who resigned in disgrace rather than face impeachment removal from office and probable felony charges… but who apparently didn’t want to impose a nationalized health plan because he thought that might be overreaching. As you know. I have been going through the medical thing lately. I use the Canadian system because the US system of HMOs and insurance companies have long-past failed me — I cannot be covered. When I mention this inconvenient fact that I use the Canadian system and that I get my health care I receive down here in Washington paid for by the Canadian government. I am called a liar — or that I don’t know what I am talking about because someone has a relative who doesn’t know how to get re-embursed for healthcare outside of the country. I get a bit short with people like that — and I apologized for the temper in the same comment. Sometimes it get a bit frustrating when you are living through a medical ordeal and your patience is already stretched to the limit because of having to adjust to a less-than-perfect health. Then you have someone who doesn’t even know you or even have a solid understanding of all of the facts — just what he has heard from other people — tell you that you are full of shit. The “Saint Ronnie” remark was an attempt at injecting some humor. It is hard to deny that many Conservatives look towards Ronald Reagan as a “saint” and would at least like to add his likeness to Mount Rushmore — even if it means knocking one of the other heads off. say the words. “There you go again” during the second presidential debate with Jimmy Carter and he was responding to Carter who accused him of wanting to do away with Medicare and Social Security. To sum it up Heather. I don’t care if someone disagrees with me on my opinion — that’s one thing. But I am not going to just sit still and have someone call me a liar — when I am going through the very thing they are calling me a liar about. And thank you Hardclimber for clearing it up a bit since I obviously don’t know what the hell I am talking aboot. I notice that much of your rebuttal concerns a conversation and a 36-year-old speech from the same man who presided over the imposition of a national 55-mile-an-hour speed limit wage-and-price controls. “stagflation” burgeoning unemployment a devalued dollar unprecedented surcharges on foreign imports an adjusted inflation rate of 12.2% — and who resigned in disgrace rather than face impeachment removal from office and probable felony charges… but who apparently didn’t want to impose a nationalized health plan because he thought that might be overreaching. Perhaps you missed the part that I conveniently emphasised in Nixon’s conversation. The part where Ehrlichman said: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can—the reason he can do it—I had Edgar Kaiser come in—talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care because the less care they give them the more money they make. “ This is the US medical system in a nutshell. Nixon sold it to us by lying about having a “National Health Strategy” that would look and feel like a Universal Health Care system but be run by private companies and that everyone would enjoy full coverage for a cheap cost. But he knew the opposite was the truth. The only way these private corporations could make money was to get out of paying for medical treatment by any means necessary. I don’t think that even Nixon could have predicted how corrupt the current HMO and private insurance industry is now. Call me curious but what exactly is KayinMaine saying that has someone riled up enough to cut her comments out? I have talked with Kayinmaine on a couple of other sites and she doesn’t strike me as someone disruptive or disrespectful. She is a progressive and granted the other sites I have talked to here were progressive sites. What the heck is she saying here that has someone blocking her comments? Drive-by sloganism is not going to work here and it only pisses everyone off — including the one lone Liberal here. (me — and lately I get pissed off easily but that is mainly because of medical issues) Try a different tact. Talk to people here — most don’t bite. They probably won’t agree with you and that’s alright too. I have NEVER met anyone who agrees 100 percent with anyone else anyways. But I think you will find that there are a LOT of areas where you can agree. Just look for them. I already tried to reason with her in that particular vein Sir to no avail… Moonbats on Parade’s comments of mine will so indicate. This is provoking just for the sake of it. Also indicative of a mind lacking depth of intellect coupled to an obvious lack of life experience lightly seasonned with infantilism du jour. My Christmas wish for 2007: THE AMERICAN MILITARY STORMS THE WHITE HOUSE. CAMP DAVID. THE RANCH IN TEXAS. BUNKERS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. AND OTHER PLACES THE PIGS IN THE WHITE HOUSE RESIDE…………. AND ARRESTS THEM ALL! My #66 and 67 above should be of service as well. My comments on forum “Garbage Disposal” will indicate that I actually TRIED to reason with the woman and all we keep getting is slogan and nonsense. Good luck to you! How is anything she says over there any different than some of the stuff I see posted here? There are people who just don’t like the Bush Regime just as there are people here who said pretty much the same thing about the Clinton Regime. And I will go out on a limb here and tell you that there will be people here saying roughly the same thing about the next Clinton Regime. The “Saint Ronnie” remark was an attempt at injecting some humor. It is hard to deny that many Conservatives look towards Ronald Reagan as a “saint” and would at least like to add his likeness to Mount Rushmore — even if it means knocking one of the other heads off. D’uh. I know. Dave. I had forgotten that he said that to Carter during their debates. I only remembered his saying it about the Democratic party. Despite my handicap of being a conservative (*sarcasm*). I knew not to address YOU as THEY. When we don’t like someone from your side of the isle or despair their ‘being in charge’. - we shudder we complain we indulge in name-calling we even (upon occasion) employ…. But we don’t LAUNCH INTO PAROXYSMS OF ALL-CAPS. MOUTH-FOAMING. TONGUE-CHOKING HATRED - WISHING (OH FOR THE LOVE OF MOTHER GAIA) FOR THE U. S. ARMY TO COME SWOOPING IN WITH THEIR ENVIRONMENTALLY-FRIENDLY HYBRID BLACK HELICOPTERS AND END THE NOXIOUS LIVES OF THE EEEVILCHIMPYMcBUSHITLERBURTONGLOBALZIONISTCONSPIRACY AND ALL WHO CARRY ANY ASPECT OF THEIR DNA. BEFORE THEY TRY TO SILENCE RANDI RHODES YET AGAIN!!!! Well maybe not with the CAPS-LOCK on but there have been many-an-occasion here where I’ve read stuff that a cursing gypsie would have been proud of. Should someone come over to YOUR site and lay this stuff down? Of course not. But if they want to get it off of their chest/breast on THEIR site then who cares? Some people are very passionate about their political beliefs. Personally. I don’t take too much of any of this all that seriously. (with the exception of someone calling me a liar over MY health care experiences but I digress) I don’t “hate” Bush. I just never found him to be great presidential material. The Right could (and should) have done a lot better. Even Bush the Elder could have run again in 2004 and been a whole lot better than Bush the Cowboy Clown. It might surprise you to know that I personally don’t have a problem with a Conservative president. But I Where the every loving hell is THAT spelled out in ANY of our Founding Documents?? The Government is NOT responsible for ANY of our needs EXCEPT guarding the border and making sure we are all safe to meet OUR OWN needs you pretentious little moron. Besides…the Government doesn’t have a gotdamn dime of it’s own anyhow. It all comes from US. So you are demanding that WE provide YOU will all human needs free of charge? Or perhaps I didn’t. That quote doesn’t explain why some HMOs offer bariatric surgery diabetes education and host of other services. Smart insurers (of which there are a few) try to keep their patients healthy because (gasp!) it makes them money. Stupid ones don’t. I won’t debate that the medical insurance situation in the US is a mess. However the fault for that mess has far less to do with corporate interests than it has with physicians and patients who bought into it blindly never stopping to reason it through to conclusion. Now we’re on the threshold of another great plan this one labeled “Trust me. I’m from the government. I’m here to help.”

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British citizens Rowan Trezise. 33 and Richie Trezise. 35 are living apart as she tries desperately to shed the pounds needed to comply with New Zealand guidelines that immigrants maintain a healthy BMI or body mass index. BMI is a weight-height ratio that estimates percentage of body fat. The New Zealand Immigration Service requires all applicants to undergo a complete medical examination which includes body size measures like “waist circumference.” The regulations were supposedly put into place for budget reasons. The country’s health care system cannot afford to open its doors to overweight immigrants a spokesman for New Zealand’s Fight the Obesity Epidemic explained to the Daily Mail. Another wondrous bonus gift that comes with socialized healthcare: Pretty soon the “free” healthcare will be rationed off to only those individuals approved by the Almighty State. Of course the fact that you can’t GET the “free” healthcare because you’re not a government-approved specimen of the human race doesn’t mean that you won’t have to PAY for it via your taxes. Oh and other than that the BMI is a certified crock. Not the way it’s calculated but the way the “approved range” is defined by the Powers that Be. Just like the “approved cholesterol range” which has magically changed downward every time the pharmaceutical companies have come out with a new statin drug or just didn’t like their volume of sale. Oh yes nationalized healthcare is a wonderful idea. Under that the government gets to define who gets to go to the doctor and when and we all know that the government is only here to help right? This entry was posted on Saturday. November 17th. 2007 at 4:21 PM and is filed under. . You can follow any responses to this entry through the feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed. Deej. Deej is it just a habit or what that you so reflexively attempt to defend indefensible communist crap with OFF TOPIC stuff that is totally unrelated? We’re talking about GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE in New Zealand. You bring up insurance in America. That has absolutely NO relationship to the topic at hand. All you accomplish is to prove that insurance in America is screwed up too… and it wasn’t like we didn’t already know that… The main finding in this large-scale study is that accurately measured percent fat overall is not associated as strongly as WC with indicators of obesity-related health risks. Now. New Zealand can do whatever it pleases. But here’s the inequity: I’m 6′4″. 220 pounds and my BMI is 27 — overweight but not obese. I’d qualify for immigration and I’ve never had a bit of difficulty qualifying for health and life insurance. However. I have a strong family history of coronary artery disease and diabetes. I work out routinely and take three medications to address my horrid-looking lipid profile and my hypertension. I can point you in the direction of any number of obese individuals who don’t share my concerns. Perhaps the Kiwis should demand a family history and DNA sample (to be evaluated for diabetes hyperlipidemia alcoholism and other risk markers) and stratify exclude on that basis. It seems more scientific and fair. After all the problem with eugenics was that they just didn’t have adequate technology to make it work back then. The Slippery Slope Fallacy is only a fallacy when we stipulate that other side is rational honest and will act with integrity. (… something Neville Chamberlain should have borne in mind…) Governments seldom make the grade. If you want to become completely creeped out get a copy of. (Bet ya didn’t know that the death camp killings were all medically-supervised “euthanasias” carried out in the name of “racial hygene.”) MoriartyThanks! I have a big stack of books threatening to fall over and kill me but this looks really important. It’s tempting just to order it from Amazon. Spouse runs a large bookstore and gets a big discount but getting him to get anything for me is liking pulling teeth. I think I’ll go with Amazon. You are against Government health care and are using the actions of New Zealand as yet another reason to dislike it. I get that. I only pointed out that under our current system of health care for the sake of profit people are routinely denied health care for the same reasons. So yes there is a distinct relationship here. We do it under our private. HMO for profit system they do it under their government-run system. It isn’t a “gotcha” reason to dislike a government-run health care system. I am sure you could find another reason but this isn’t one of them. As far as my comment about YOU wanting immigrants to conform to values practices and customs of Americans. New Zealanders also have the right to require immigrants to their country conform to values practices and customs there. If you want me to give a health related example then I could do that as well. We turn down people coming into this country for a myriad of health reasons. In this particular story though if you want to take advantage of New Zealand’s government-provided health care as an immigrant then you had better do something about your weight. Besides why does any of this bother anyone here? Were you planning on immigrating to New Zealand? Yeah nice thing about socialized health care. Just ask the Canadians coming here to get treated. Or the folks in England told they have three months left to live and their surgery is scheduled six months from now. Yep good thing socialized health care lousy for everybody. I’d rather have my taxes cover those that can’t or won’t pay as they do now. You can bet your bottom dollar or euro or yen that those foisting these policies upon us do not have to live by them as witnessed by our own government. BMI is a load of crap anyway. When I was in the Corps there was a Marine who was a former pro-linebacker (New England I think my memory fails me) who was pure muscle solid as a rock. He was put on weight control and his career threatened because his BMI said he was overweight. There was another Marine who was a power lifter. Also pure muscle also put on weight control because his BMI was wrong. Yep. Just don’t complain when Hillary’s Health Police tell you that you’re denied care because your BMI is 2 points over some arbitrary limit and they cite some low N to show that they have right idea on dealing with health care costs since “it worked in New Zealand.” BMI?!?! I am certified underweight. every jewish mother including those whose daughters I dated and broke up with wants to feed me and feed me OY! Deej yes insurance company’s are private company’s and can deny whoever the hell they want. they denied me too. so you know what my dad did ? he went back to being a pharmacist from the medical equiptment biz which yes made more but CVS provides me with FREE gratis aetna health care… mi glasses were free too (300$) As another example of this sort of crap. I met a young lady recently who is currently active service. Army who was informed that she had a choice of losing twenty pounds or being denied reenlistment. This girl is DENSE (bodily speaking) she lifts. She’s about 5′4″ and around 135lbs. And could probably bench press ME for about 50 reps. No body fat. (other than the usual female type locations) but she is “overweight”. Isn’t this the same crap coming from people screaming you can’t discriminate against overweight people? I’ve known some fat dudes and they were stronger than hell. This sorta reminds me of the big bruhaha raised in San Francisco when that billboard went up… GuidoIt’s wrong but it’s the BMI thing that screws super-muscular people. Muscle weighs more than fat so it seems like they are heavy for their size. They should use a body fat measurement scale to double-check in cases like that but there probably isn’t a standard for that. What’s next? Is Eugenics on the rise?I looked at one definition: Eugenics is a social philosophy which advances the improvement of human heredity traits through various forms of INTERVENTION. Jeez all of this sound Orwellian to me and led by the PCP police. It’s wrong but it’s the BMI thing that screws super-muscular people. Muscle weighs more than fat so it seems like they are heavy for their size. They should use a body fat measurement scale to double-check in cases like that but there probably isn’t a standard for that. There is but it’s harder to look at than a height/weight chart. It would require like. I dunno some THOUGHT on the part of some useless feckless ambitionless anonymous drone in an office somewhere. The stupid part of all this crap in the military is that if a soldier/sailor/airman/Marine can’t make the PT standards they are gonna be out anyway. Why worry about the fact that some of the people that are being dumped are some of the most dedicated people in the military? The decision can be made on the basis of information that can be gathered in thirty seconds with equipment that is sitting in every medical office on every military post and station in the world. As another example of this sort of crap. I met a young lady recently who is currently active service. Army who was informed that she had a choice of losing twenty pounds or being denied reenlistment. This girl is DENSE (bodily speaking) she lifts. She’s about 5′4″ and around 135lbs. And could probably bench press ME for about 50 reps. You could ask me because I go UP THERE for my medical. It doesn’t cost me anything and I actually get in to see a doctor faster than I would if I had my treatments down here. Canada actually pays for my physical therapy down here since it is closer to where I live. I would be 100 percent uninsurable down here in the United States due to my pre-existing medical conditions. In other words. I would have been dead several years ago if I had to rely on the great HMO medical scam here in the US. Usually if you are told you have only three months to live your case is terminal and there is no surgery in the world that is going to save you. I don’t know where you are getting this information but it sounds a bit suspicious. I don’t care what kind of medical system you have — there is no way you are going to “save” everyone. But of all the first world industrial countries in the world this is the only one that has forty million people without medical insurance because they simply cannot afford it due to a medical system whose sole mission is to turn a profit not provide medical coverage. Do you want to know one of the major reasons many of the jobs have been leaving the US? It is because of the high cost of health insurance. Most businesses don’t want that extra expense per employee which can be as much as $10-$12 an hour more per employee. What was the GM and Chrysler strikes about? Health care. It is exactly the reason why Republicans are going to lose in a big way this next election. The question is do we want a Hillary health care plan that favors the insurance companies and winds up costing each of us through the nose or do we want one of the other plans that expands medicare or medicaid? You know. I don’t want to be too argumentative. However upon further thought I don’t think this is as stupid or fascist as it might seem immediately. I am very obese (about 80 lb is from drug interactions) so I am well aware of the conditions that can result: increased cancer(s) heart disease diabetes dementia. An increase in obesity adds tremendously to the cost of health care in this country (direct medical costs $93 billion). I don’t think it’s that horrible to exclude obese people and that would include me. There are lots of problems with the BMI measurements but you can’t argue excessive weight (which does not appear to be the case in Misha’s example) Insurance companies will decline coverage for things like athlete’s foot in the US so it would not surprise me if they did screen out obese people. I have no experience with nationalized health care systems but I could never in a million years get my own insurance policy here: MANY conditions. I’m on spouse’s work policy which periodically stops paying my claims. It’s enough to make me paranoid (wait–I was already). Yeah you could extend to race and smokers but it doesn’t seem like they have yet. I am married to a smoker–I don’t think they are evil. Actually what also worries me in this country is insurance companies getting the results of genetic screening that indicates a predisposition for a disease and denying coverage based on that. the crazy thing about this is that the weight range was changed a few years back to make more people over weight when i got married i weighed 130 lbs at 5′9″ my wife is a dietician and show me weight range charts putting me 25lbs underweight. 22 years later i weigh 170 and am overweight where the old charts would put me low normal admittedly i have put on a lot of fat from inactivity but i am too lazy to care here is a link to a My wife is Canadian and members of her family come here for treatment for various ailments. And it’s strictly out of pocket. Most still prefer the Canadian system…but I think that’s because they can afford to come here for the long waiting list stuff. My brother-in-law wants to come back here to be a radiologist because he thinks that people there often get short shrift. He’s concerned that the Canadian system will decay to British National Death Service levels. And he works in that to you I’m sure abomination. Alberta. And here in the US we try heroic measures to save people. My wife’s grandfather was sent to hospice to die. Not worth the cost to fight what was killing him. Two months later he was sent home in remission but with no further treatment. Eighteen months later he died. In the US he might have had a chance. But in your socialistic fuck all world he was simply too costly. So don’t peddle you bullshit when people have certain knowledge that it isn’t the panacea that you claim it be. Allyn. It just makes you look stupid. The stupid part of all this crap in the military is that if a soldier/sailor/airman/Marine can’t make the PT standards they are gonna be out anyway. Why worry about the fact that some of the people that are being dumped are some of the most dedicated people in the military? The decision can be made on the basis of information that can be gathered in thirty seconds with equipment that is sitting in every medical office on every military post and station in the world. I’m taking you up on that bet. Prove that the Canucks getting treated here are sponsored by the maple leaf gubmint (not including token PR stunts (sending here a high-profile heart tugging case). When you lose this bet you will wear one of your Che’ shirts in the front row of a Hannity Freedom Concert™ The BMI is a crude money saving tool used by insurers. They even promote it’s use. There’s always some fluff piece on the news or internet about how to calculate it. But it WAAAAY overestimates the obesity epidemic. At 6′1″ 185. I’m considered at risk or pre obese or whatever term that particular article chooses. Yet. I’m very very fit and thankfully know better than these numbskulls. But still follow the money: If you have a fallacious guideline (BMI) that makes people pay extra to get coverage then you promote the fallacy ceaselessly until people believe it. Horseshit !!! The big automakers see Universal Health Care as an easy out to fund their retiree health benefits that were negotiated by the unions and they foolishly accepted. UHC is a win-win for them because they (and other large companies) believe they’ll immediately be able to dump their retirees into the government system. to make health-care an issue but I don’t see enough people to buy into it to make much of a difference. I work for a small company (<30 employees) and aggressive shopping has kept health-care costs reasonable yeah they’re up a bit but it’s not bankrupting the company or the employees. This election cycle is going to be about Homeland Security and the WoT. The left knows it and also knows that it’s their soft-white underbelly. They’ve bent over for the socialist frothing moon-bat wing of the party on the war and won’t be able to reframe the “issues” into the same old domestic class-warfare playbook and pull it off. Catch-22 for the Left. As to the Canadian system. Red can give you all the horror-stories you want. Her brother developed heart troubles leading to an MI. He was put on a waiting list to see a Cardiologist SIX months after the first heart attack. He suffered at least THREE more during that period and Thank G_d he survived them. Her mother showed a lung mass on a routine X-Ray she waited months for an MRI and then months more to see a Pulmonologist to determine a course of treatment. Next fer instance. Her mom recently took a serious fall she went to the hospital and they determined she had ruptured a spinal disc and displaced a vertebrae. Treatment? “Oh you don’t need to be hospitalized just go home and take it easy”. That’s an injury that has a significant risk of paralysis without definitive in-patient treatment for a geriatric patient. Many residents of B. C travel to the Seattle area for scripts and treatment and NO their BC Care Card does NOT pay for it. Even if the Canadian government paid for some of the treatment and in most cases I seriously doubt it,,,,,why should an individual have to elave the country in the first place to receive critical medical attention? Profit driven companies have created miracles of technology saving lives… and yes treatment often very expensive. That’s what insurance is for. Personally I wouldn’t blame any parent going to any lengths to save their child’s life insurance of not. I would do the same. I remember standing over my wife thanking God for insurance she on life support. ICU tubes running down her nose in her veins a computer maintaining her vital functions as massive does of vancomycyn were administered. The doctors pulled out the stops saving her life told me she was young and strong. She was thirty then she is fifty now… yet I remember it as if it were yesterday. And I thanked God for the minds and hands that developed and built those machines and medications… the ones often purchased by governments with socialist heath care policies. My own (admittedly limited) experience with Canadian patients leads me to conclude the following: The Canadian system is fine if you have a case of the sniffles or some other self-limited minor problem. If you have something life-threatening and urgent. You’re in for a long wait. (Unless you’re a of course.) Canadians who can afford it carry their catastrophic coverage in the US. Those who don’t roll the dice wait and hope for the best not infrequently dying in the process. need. And as allegedly compassionate some claim socialist health care to be… it is here in the states where someone will get treated for emergency situations and often the bill is written off. Yes you owe and often bankruptcy is the result. But I have waited for hours in emergency rooms while illegals and non English speaking people were treated. So in a very real sesne we do have socialized medical care here… for illegal immigrants. I’m living on disability and my wife can’t work. I get coverage she doesn’t. She eneds knee replacement the L. A. County health care system has taken three years to determine she needs a knee replacement and put her in for the surgery which still has not been actually scheduled. MoriartyWould that be rude to ask you a brief professional question? If it’s okay could you e-mail me at tetrodotoxin2 yahoo? (newly diagnosed–not sure how much to worry about extreme symptoms) other options for info have problems. If you need any advice on plants plant compounds or fungi that’s about all I have to trade. You probably know all about the medicinal plant compounds. Speaking of fungi there is some really interesting info on fungal poisoning hallucinations witch trials. LSD. Peter the Great’s army socialist food distribution and The X-Files (all related to the one fungus). If anyone is interested you have my e-mail address. Jackbootsorry about your wife’s relatives’ experiences. 6 months for a cardiologist after a heart attack? in the US. If you think New Zealand’s heath care is out of line just wait to see what we end up with Hillary. into its socialized healthcare program. It didn’t say anything about whether it applies that same criteria towards its citizens or not. I am also not sure whether New Zealand is as “heavy-set” as people from the United States where there are people who are — by any criteria you choose to use — well. overweight. Get over it or lose some weight. If you got “Furniture’s Disease” (where your chest has slipped into your drawers) then you are probably fat. If you haven’t seen “down there” for a while or you fall on your face trying to see your toes then you might be a bit too fat. I don’t mean to be condescending or heartless here. I am just stating a fact. I could easily fit into the fat category as well. I know it isn’t politically correct to refer to someone as being “fat” any more — to be “polite” we use euphemisms such as “big-boned” or “big-framed” to describe people who probably should cut back on the big bowl of ice cream while they sit on the couch watching TV. None of what I just said endorses the BMI scale which is just an excuse for insurance companies to charge higher premiums or deny payments for what they see as “unhealthy choices”. Sometimes being I hate to break this to you but I am a Canadian citizen. I recently had major surgery — in British Columbia and I get my followup treatments right here in the United States — and it is paid for by (wait for it…) the Canadian government health care system. But in your socialistic fuck all world he was simply too costly. So don’t peddle you bullshit when people have certain knowledge that it isn’t the panacea that you claim it be. Allyn. It just makes you look stupid. Yet I am still alive after four remissions four surgeries and what would have been several million dollars of care right here in the US that probably would have been denied by the insurance companies. this fairy tale you fucking idiot stick. Unlike you who pulled your entire opinion out of your ample ass. I actually have the experience of having to deal with BOTH medical systems in a big way. Come back to see me when you’ve had three organs a rib and several tumors removed. Tell me how that went for you down here in the US. Tell me how you were able to do it AFTER the insurance companies all turned you down for coverage years earlier because of your pre-existing illnesses. Tell me about it when the insurance company decides that whatever procedure the doctors say you need is considered to be “experimental” and therefore not covered — even though it is a procedure that has been commonly used for years. I lost a friend a few years ago who had been denied a liver transplant because he didn’t have insurance. His brother was a perfect match for partial liver transplant but just before the surgery was going to be performed the insurance company denied the claim then dropped him. Because twenty-six years earlier when he was in college he had been admitted to the hospital after getting drunk and falling over a retaining wall. He broke his leg in the fall. Because he failed to mention the fact that he had been drunk at the time he went to the hospital for a broken leg the insurance company promptly dropped his coverage saying that alcohol HAD to be the pre-existing cause of his failed liver. I am not one of those high-profile heart tugging cases. I just recently had surgery up in British Columbia and I get followup visits done right down here in the Seattle area — including physical therapy. ALL of it is paid for by the Canadian health care system. UHC is a win-win for them because they (and other large companies) believe they’ll immediately be able to dump their retirees into the government system. employees as well. The only real companies against UHC is the insurance companies who have spent billions of dollars convincing people lke you that UHC is a bad thing and misrepresent UHC in other countries as “failures”. Are there problems with UHC systems in the other industrialized countries? Sure. There are problems with ANY system. But by and large. MOST of the system works. The problem here in the US is that our health care system is driven by profits over health care. An insurance payout is considered to be a “medical loss”. Medical case reviewers are rewarded for “saving” money by denying cases. It all depends on the particular surgical or therapeutic treatment required. If you need a knee replacement — sure you might wait up to six months for that. You might wait that long here if not longer. But if your case is like mine — surgery now or die — then it is surgery NOW with no wait. It is all about case prioritizing. Yes everyone likes to think that THEIR case is the most important one. THEIR ailments are more important than the other guy’s. Because of that you will have some disgruntled people to complain about their “long waits” in a “fucked up health care system”. I hear that right here at home. My roommate had back surgery in May and knee surgery in July. He waited almost a year for it and now that he’s had it he is STILL complaining about how “fucked up” the system is. Not only that he has been on medical leave from Boeing since he was injured there over a year ago. He will be going back next month and he expects to be let go because of his claim. 3) Do you always get your medical care done in the emergency room? Why don’t YOU have medical insurance? Like I stated above. I have been living this healthcare fairy tale for a very long time. It is costly to maintain a residence in two countries just so that I can afford medical care when I need it. I am lucky in MY situation because I have dual citizenship and can legally hold residence in both countries simultaneously. As I said above there are going to be problems with every medical “system” and there are going to be some trade-offs. Can I point to negative ones in the MSP Care system? Sure. But over all. I have found that where I can get care through BC. I cannot get care through the US unless I pay for it out of pocket. Many of the people who travel down from BC don’t want to wait for medical care so they DO come down here to the US and pay out of pocket. But they certainly aren’t going to pay for major surgery down here out of pocket and they aren’t going to have to wait in a line in BC to have it done either. I assume you’re asking in general and not me right? The Major knew which is no surprise. I have this right wing death beast debating partner. He hasn’t said anything but he’s obviously done something covert. Weird stuff will come up and I’ll ask him how he knows that and there will be silence. He knows what tetrodotoxin is. I don’t know whether to write that off as being very knowledgable or something more nefarious. One…no they came in after me…every one of them. And no they were not in greater difficulty. Not if you walk in. I had to help my daughter in not being able to breathe does that. The receptionist had difficulty speaking English. And yes as far as I could tell. I speaking limited Spanish…I was the ONLY one asked if I had insurance!Two as often as necessary. When your wife or daughter suffers a severe asthma attack you do not wait. Regardless of time of day. Three…no. I do not. Yes. I have medical insurance. Quit making assumptions. See now that is a different spin on it when you say it is the Canadian government health care system Because I have been a citizen here in the US just as long and it would be nice if this country would catch up to the rest of the world when it comes to how health care is provided. Fifteen years ago people were not ready for single-payer Universal Health Care. Things have changed and the majority of people in this country WANT to have a change in how our health care is provided. Ever since Edgar Kaiser lobbyed John Ehrlichman to get the Nixon Administration behind the Health Management Organizations (HMO) our health care system has been steadily getting worse. If you don’t believe that this has been a set up all along don’t listen to me listen to. It is a bad recording and it is very hard to hear what they are saying so here is the official transcript: Ehrlichman: —we have now narrowed down the vice president’s problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says. “Well. I don’t think they’ll work but if the president thinks it’s a good idea. I’ll support him a hundred percent.” President Nixon: Say that I—I—I’d tell him I have doubts about it but I think that it’s uh now let me ask you now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not to keen on any of these damn medical programs. Ehrlichman: Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can—the reason he can do it—I had Edgar Kaiser come in—talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care because— Nixon was against the idea of the government providing health care — like virtually every other industrialized country in the world. This was a program he could get behind — private sector making profits and giving the illusion of providing health care on par or better than any other country in the world. But he knew from the onset that the reality is in order for the private sector to make any money they had to provide LESS health care by systematically denying legitimate claims. But it didn’t stop him from addressing Congress and the country the next day about his bold new National Health Strategy: Richard NixonSpecial Message to the Congress Proposing a National Health StrategyFebruary 18th. 1971To the Congress of the United States: In the last twelve months alone. America’s medical bill went up eleven percent from $63 to $70 billion. In the last ten years it has climbed 170 percent from the $26 billion level in 1960. Then we were spending 5.3 percent of our Gross National Product on health; today we devote almost 7% of our GNP to health expenditures. This growing investment in health has been led by the Federal Government. In 1960. Washington spent $3.5 billion on medical needs–13 percent of the total. This year it will spend $21 billion–or about 30 percent of the nation’s spending in this area. For most Americans the result of our expanded investment has been more medical care and care of higher quality. A profusion of impressive new techniques powerful new drugs and splendid new facilities has developed over the past decade. During that same time there has been a six percent drop in the number of days each year that Americans are disabled. Clearly there is much that is right with American medicine. But there is also much that is wrong. One of the biggest problems is that fully 60 percent of the growth in medical expenditures in the last ten years has gone not for additional services but merely to meet price inflation. Since 1960 medical costs have gone up twice as fast as the cost of living. Hospital costs have risen five times as fast as other prices. For growing numbers of Americans the cost of care is becoming prohibitive. And even those who can afford most care may find themselves impoverished by a catastrophic medical expenditure. I live this fairy tale you fucking idiot stick. Unlike you who pulled your entire opinion out of your ample ass. I actually have the experience of having to deal with BOTH medical systems in a big way. Come back to see me when you’ve had three organs a rib and several tumors removed. Tell me how that went for you down here in the US. Listen asshat. You fucking lied. So don’t get all pissy on me when I call you on it. That isn’t true. Allyn and you know it. I have Canadian relatives who had to come here for stints. BEeause the waiting line was too long and they would have become a medical risk if they waited any longer. And they paid for it out of pocket. You got good treatment? Good on ya! Lot’s don’t there. Many don’t here. Life isn’t fair but painting a rosy picture when none exists _is_ a fairy tale. And it’s your’s skippy. American Senior Citizens are waving to sick Canadians as one goes north for cheap meds and the other goes south for vital surgery. In fact. Liberal MP Belinda Stronach went to California for breast cancer treatment. We don’t know exactly _why_ she had to go to California except that it’s a private matter and since the Canadian Government didn’t pay for it it is well private. As Canadian Commenter points out: Gerald SkowronskiUnless the Canadian taxpayer paid for Stronach’s surgery we have no business trying to find out the details of this intensely personal situation. I may not agree with her political tactics but her personal life is her own. Moreover when _some_ Canadians come to the US for treatment they have to fight Canadian Bureaucrats to get paid. Hmmmm just like the Managed Healthcare folks here. When Hillarycare became big news in the early 90’s much was made of the people coming south for treatment. At that time it was more with only several thousands of “medical refugees” heading south each year(Most of whom paid out of pocket. Allyn). This is changing. Particularly because when many of these studies were conducted the dollar was very strong. (Both that paper and a Frazer Institute report from the late 90’s). However with the Yankee Dollar now worth less than the Loony and the increasing failures of the (following the politics in Saskatchewan now. Allyn) this is changing and.. Particularly when in 1999 Cancer Center Ontario entered into a contract with Detroit’s Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute to treat Canadians. One of the _rare_ cases where the Canadian Government has _paid_ for it’s citizens to get treatment…assuming they could afford to live here But in all these papers. Allyn the over riding reason that more Canadians don’t go South for surgery is because they have to pay for it out of pocket. Not at all what you said. In the mid 90’s studies indicate that only few thousand came South for treatment most How in the fuck did I lie? Did you lack basic reading skills when I mentioned that I am a living breathing example of being re-embursed by the MSP? I don’t give a rats rusty fuck whether you have relatives who haven’t figured out how to get the government to rebate their medical costs. Calling ME a liar because they don’t get re-embursed for their expenses is assinine. You are obviously ignorant of the entire system or there is something you are telling us about. Are your people even signed up with MSP and have a CareCard and/or a PharmaCard? Or did they just throw their hands up and surrender so they could come down here for their medical needs? It really makes no fucking difference to me one way or the other. I know what I get and I have no problems. You got good treatment? Good on ya! Lot’s don’t there. Many don’t here. Life isn’t fair but painting a rosy picture when none exists _is_ a fairy tale. And it’s your’s skippy. Maybe because your relatives are painting a bleak picture is the reason you tend to believe the worse. The reality is whole lot different. I don’t know the story as to why your relatives feel the need to head South for their medical — did I mention that I don’t care? Whatever reason they have is their own. I think I mentioned this above but if I didn’t. I will now. Medical ailments and the medical care associated with those ailments is subjective. Some people have bad experiences with their medical providers/insurance companies and there is nothing that is ever going to change their minds about their perception once they feel they’ve been ‘burned’. I can only go with MY own experiences with the Canadian. British. American. Israeli and German health care systems. I have dealt with them all. Each have their good points each have their bad. I would rather be here in the US for my medical but economics prevents me from doing so. Luck of birth allows me to take advantage of the Canadian system which also allows me much cheaper prescription drugs. I just had my recent surgery up in BC at St Paul’s. I guess I was one of those “waving people”. The thing is. I wasn’t the only American in the hospital getting surgery. I found six Americans who checked in for surgery at the same time I did. I don’t know how they were getting their procedures but apparently it isn’t all that uncommon. We don’t know exactly _why_ she had to go to California except that it’s a private matter and since the Canadian Government didn’t pay for it it is well private. As Canadian Commenter points out: Maybe as a public figure she didn’t want her medical history strewn all over the papers? Maybe she needed a specialist that only could be found in California. Her reasons are HER reasons which may or may not have a damn thing to do with her perception of or the healthcare of Canada at all. Maybe she wanted to combine hospital with vacation. Did she go to Disneyland? I can only speak from MY experiences. I have no problems getting re-embursed for my costs down here. In fact. I was just commenting to my wife the other day that I am actually making a slight profit because of the exchange rate between the US and Canadian dollar at the moment. But in all these papers. Allyn the over riding reason that more Canadians don’t go South for surgery is because they have to pay for it out of pocket. Not at all what you said. I notice that much of your “papers” are directly or indirectly from the Fraser Institute which is a Conservative think tank set up to tear down the basic liberal structure of Canada. Canada has its Conservatives also. They just aren’t as prevalent as they are here. I also think that there is a little “grass is greener on the other side of the fence” syndrome going on with some people in Canada. They think that just because they have to wait for a whopping 18.3 weeks up there that things are going to be magically different down here. I know people who are waiting for teeth cleaning for six months right here in Lynnwood. It took me a whole year to have my teeth pulled for dentures. As terrible as you and your relatives think the Canadian health care system is chew on these facts for a moment: Canada has a mortality rate of 7.86 individuals per 1000. The United States has a 8.26 per 1000 rating. By comparison. Mexico has a mortality rate of only 4.76 per 1000. People are dropping like flies in Swaziland at the rate of 30.35 per 1000 and the best place to be is the United Arab Emirates because they shed people at the rate of 2.16 per 1000\ Oh and the source for this information comes from the just so you know I didn’t pull if from one of my “Liberal Resource Books” I am the only reputable source I need on this. You might not like it but as I’ve said earlier — I don’t really care. The point is. I have a very personal stake in this and I am much more of an expert when it comes to MY medical experiences than YOU are. I would also venture to say that I am much more of an expert at dealing with the medical systems of four countries than you are. I can tell you that both Britain and Germany have their pluses but that overall expertise is much better here in the US. The medical services in Canada are comparable to those here in the US and for ME they are much better because you aren’t having to rely on the HMO or an insurance company whose only motivation is profit. I know that the Nixon address to Congress is a bit long. But if you read what the Ehrlichman/Nixon conversation said the day before you get a fairly good idea how the health care system really runs here in the US. Certainly there are waiting lists but rest assured that if your case is serious and does require IMMEDIATE action you will get it. Yes some of our citizens do go down to your country form some form of treatment or another that’s a fact. Some do not want to wait easily understood! And yes. Canada Health Care System is ENTIRELY run by the government. However keeping in mind that some hospitals are busier than others there is a tendency towards long waiting periods in our “emergency” rooms however should a patient come in with a real emergency (i e bad car accident victim) the staff will address this issue immediately. DJ as a Canadian citizen is entitled to reimbursment for his care plain and simple. Keep in mind also that a Canadian specialist might recommend his patient receive specialized care in the US which in some rare cases will be paid for by our government. Now not ALL treatments and services are paid for or reimbursed. Should a patient choose to go to Florida for instance because there is a center there which treats the problem faster than our own hospitals and that same patient can receive the same treatment here but at a later date this is not reimbursed nor paid for. Only the very wealthy seem to avail themselves of treatments and services offered by your clinics which is understandable. They can afford not to wait… To play the devil’s advocate and although nobody likes to wait for anything. I find our medical staff to be doing an extremely good job under the circumstances. I live in New Brunswick and received excellent care whenever such care was needed (i e broke a bone in my hand once… took less than two hours from admission to discharge…). Please don’t think that our hospitals are cold uncaring establishments just because we have state sponsored health care it would be far from the truth. That being said our politicians do NOT go to regular hospitals. They are sent to the National Defence Medical Center in Ottawa one of the world’s best equipped staffed and administered hospital. No waiting in line with the “masses” for their care… With all due respect what the f**k is this? I’ve always respected your opinions because you seemed above the fray. To paraphrase”St Ronnie” (as you sarcastically call him) said. “There he goes again…” What gives? Are you alright? If you’re feeling terrible (which I would understand completely) then quit poking sticks in the hornet’s nest. And if you do don’t be surprised and pissed off at the reactions you get around here. Damn man at least BC had that LOL emoticon at the end of his comment to you. As terrible as you and your relatives think the Canadian health care system is chew on these facts for a moment: Canada has a mortality rate of 7.86 individuals per 1000. The United States has a 8.26 per 1000 rating. By comparison. Mexico has a mortality rate of only 4.76 per 1000. Thank you for your considered epidemiological opinion. Dr. Allyn. Rest assured that the public health community is anxiously awaiting the advance draft of your magnum opus entitled “Two Centuries of Abject Statistical Idiocy: Why Correlation Really I notice that much of your rebuttal concerns a conversation and a 36-year-old speech from the same man who presided over the imposition of a national 55-mile-an-hour speed limit wage-and-price controls. “stagflation” burgeoning unemployment a devalued dollar unprecedented surcharges on foreign imports an adjusted inflation rate of 12.2% — and who resigned in disgrace rather than face impeachment removal from office and probable felony charges… but who apparently didn’t want to impose a nationalized health plan because he thought that might be overreaching. As you know. I have been going through the medical thing lately. I use the Canadian system because the US system of HMOs and insurance companies have long-past failed me — I cannot be covered. When I mention this inconvenient fact that I use the Canadian system and that I get my health care I receive down here in Washington paid for by the Canadian government. I am called a liar — or that I don’t know what I am talking about because someone has a relative who doesn’t know how to get re-embursed for healthcare outside of the country. I get a bit short with people like that — and I apologized for the temper in the same comment. Sometimes it get a bit frustrating when you are living through a medical ordeal and your patience is already stretched to the limit because of having to adjust to a less-than-perfect health. Then you have someone who doesn’t even know you or even have a solid understanding of all of the facts — just what he has heard from other people — tell you that you are full of shit. The “Saint Ronnie” remark was an attempt at injecting some humor. It is hard to deny that many Conservatives look towards Ronald Reagan as a “saint” and would at least like to add his likeness to Mount Rushmore — even if it means knocking one of the other heads off. say the words. “There you go again” during the second presidential debate with Jimmy Carter and he was responding to Carter who accused him of wanting to do away with Medicare and Social Security. To sum it up Heather. I don’t care if someone disagrees with me on my opinion — that’s one thing. But I am not going to just sit still and have someone call me a liar — when I am going through the very thing they are calling me a liar about. And thank you Hardclimber for clearing it up a bit since I obviously don’t know what the hell I am talking aboot. I notice that much of your rebuttal concerns a conversation and a 36-year-old speech from the same man who presided over the imposition of a national 55-mile-an-hour speed limit wage-and-price controls. “stagflation” burgeoning unemployment a devalued dollar unprecedented surcharges on foreign imports an adjusted inflation rate of 12.2% — and who resigned in disgrace rather than face impeachment removal from office and probable felony charges… but who apparently didn’t want to impose a nationalized health plan because he thought that might be overreaching. Perhaps you missed the part that I conveniently emphasised in Nixon’s conversation. The part where Ehrlichman said: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can—the reason he can do it—I had Edgar Kaiser come in—talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care because the less care they give them the more money they make. “ This is the US medical system in a nutshell. Nixon sold it to us by lying about having a “National Health Strategy” that would look and feel like a Universal Health Care system but be run by private companies and that everyone would enjoy full coverage for a cheap cost. But he knew the opposite was the truth. The only way these private corporations could make money was to get out of paying for medical treatment by any means necessary. I don’t think that even Nixon could have predicted how corrupt the current HMO and private insurance industry is now. Call me curious but what exactly is KayinMaine saying that has someone riled up enough to cut her comments out? I have talked with Kayinmaine on a couple of other sites and she doesn’t strike me as someone disruptive or disrespectful. She is a progressive and granted the other sites I have talked to here were progressive sites. What the heck is she saying here that has someone blocking her comments? Drive-by sloganism is not going to work here and it only pisses everyone off — including the one lone Liberal here. (me — and lately I get pissed off easily but that is mainly because of medical issues) Try a different tact. Talk to people here — most don’t bite. They probably won’t agree with you and that’s alright too. I have NEVER met anyone who agrees 100 percent with anyone else anyways. But I think you will find that there are a LOT of areas where you can agree. Just look for them. I already tried to reason with her in that particular vein Sir to no avail… Moonbats on Parade’s comments of mine will so indicate. This is provoking just for the sake of it. Also indicative of a mind lacking depth of intellect coupled to an obvious lack of life experience lightly seasonned with infantilism du jour. My Christmas wish for 2007: THE AMERICAN MILITARY STORMS THE WHITE HOUSE. CAMP DAVID. THE RANCH IN TEXAS. BUNKERS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. AND OTHER PLACES THE PIGS IN THE WHITE HOUSE RESIDE…………. AND ARRESTS THEM ALL! My #66 and 67 above should be of service as well. My comments on forum “Garbage Disposal” will indicate that I actually TRIED to reason with the woman and all we keep getting is slogan and nonsense. Good luck to you! How is anything she says over there any different than some of the stuff I see posted here? There are people who just don’t like the Bush Regime just as there are people here who said pretty much the same thing about the Clinton Regime. And I will go out on a limb here and tell you that there will be people here saying roughly the same thing about the next Clinton Regime. The “Saint Ronnie” remark was an attempt at injecting some humor. It is hard to deny that many Conservatives look towards Ronald Reagan as a “saint” and would at least like to add his likeness to Mount Rushmore — even if it means knocking one of the other heads off. D’uh. I know. Dave. I had forgotten that he said that to Carter during their debates. I only remembered his saying it about the Democratic party. Despite my handicap of being a conservative (*sarcasm*). I knew not to address YOU as THEY. When we don’t like someone from your side of the isle or despair their ‘being in charge’. - we shudder we complain we indulge in name-calling we even (upon occasion) employ…. But we don’t LAUNCH INTO PAROXYSMS OF ALL-CAPS. MOUTH-FOAMING. TONGUE-CHOKING HATRED - WISHING (OH FOR THE LOVE OF MOTHER GAIA) FOR THE U. S. ARMY TO COME SWOOPING IN WITH THEIR ENVIRONMENTALLY-FRIENDLY HYBRID BLACK HELICOPTERS AND END THE NOXIOUS LIVES OF THE EEEVILCHIMPYMcBUSHITLERBURTONGLOBALZIONISTCONSPIRACY AND ALL WHO CARRY ANY ASPECT OF THEIR DNA. BEFORE THEY TRY TO SILENCE RANDI RHODES YET AGAIN!!!! Well maybe not with the CAPS-LOCK on but there have been many-an-occasion here where I’ve read stuff that a cursing gypsie would have been proud of. Should someone come over to YOUR site and lay this stuff down? Of course not. But if they want to get it off of their chest/breast on THEIR site then who cares? Some people are very passionate about their political beliefs. Personally. I don’t take too much of any of this all that seriously. (with the exception of someone calling me a liar over MY health care experiences but I digress) I don’t “hate” Bush. I just never found him to be great presidential material. The Right could (and should) have done a lot better. Even Bush the Elder could have run again in 2004 and been a whole lot better than Bush the Cowboy Clown. It might surprise you to know that I personally don’t have a problem with a Conservative president. But I Where the every loving hell is THAT spelled out in ANY of our Founding Documents?? The Government is NOT responsible for ANY of our needs EXCEPT guarding the border and making sure we are all safe to meet OUR OWN needs you pretentious little moron. Besides…the Government doesn’t have a gotdamn dime of it’s own anyhow. It all comes from US. So you are demanding that WE provide YOU will all human needs free of charge? Or perhaps I didn’t. That quote doesn’t explain why some HMOs offer bariatric surgery diabetes education and host of other services. Smart insurers (of which there are a few) try to keep their patients healthy because (gasp!) it makes them money. Stupid ones don’t. I won’t debate that the medical insurance situation in the US is a mess. However the fault for that mess has far less to do with corporate interests than it has with physicians and patients who bought into it blindly never stopping to reason it through to conclusion. Now we’re on the threshold of another great plan this one labeled “Trust me. I’m from the government. I’m here to help.”

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Lentils are a delicious and nutritious food — high in protein minerals and fiber — that can be easily used as a substitute for other staples such as meat pasta or potatoes in soups and stews. Unlike dried beans they demand no soaking and create from raw material relatively quickly. Place barley in a furnish bowl cover with 3 cups filtered water and soak for at least an hour or overnight. Drain and launder set barley aside. 2 Tbsp sesame oil1 medium onion5 cups vegetable stock1/2 cup green or brown lentils rinse1 cup chopped broccoli1/2 cup fresh parsely chopped2 Tbsp 2 celery stalks diced2 carrots diced3 cloves of garlic crushed1 tsp each: basil oregano thyme and sea salt1/2 tsp dillSeveral dashes of cayenne pepper In a large heavy pot heat oil over medium-high heat. Add onion and garlic fry until translucent. Add vegetable stock and bring to a boil. Add soaked barley decrease heat and boil covered for 30 minutes. Add lentils and simmer covered for an additional 20 minutes. Once barley and lentils are tender add vegetables herbs and spices and boil covered for another 10 minutes or until vegetables are desires tenderness. Add more water is needed to thin soup. We also added some hot sauce at the table to our bowls you can do that if you want a bit more zip. Makes 4-6 servings - I made a double and we have eaten it for lunch for 4 days! Subscribe to my recipes by email: Make sure you get my recipes emailed to you every weekend by. Every weekend one new whole food recipe posted for you to enjoy and then comment on. you definitely be to immerse it. It’s like soaking beans - removes some of the starchiness and makes them more digestable. Don’t skip the soaking. If you use pearl barley you can skip it - but I would recommend hulled. The hull has lots of the nutrients and selected pearl barley you lose a lot of that nutrition. If you don’t undergo an hour do what I did to cheat it - soak them for about 15 minutes in hot to boiling water. Then rinse. You’ll see all the stuff that comes off in the water and see why you want to soak first. Niki - sesame oil is actually one that is authorise to alter and is good for you. Are you aware that you need oils and Essential fatty acids in your body? If you don’t want to use the oil just saute the onion and garlic in a little of the soup stock instead. But I’d say don’t be afraid of some oil. XHTML: You can use these tags: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym call=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <code> <em> <i> <strike> <strong> Namaste: "I honor the place in you in which the entire Universe dwells. I recognise the place in you which is of Love of Truth of Light and of Peace. When you are in that place in you and I am in that displace in me we are One."

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fat bloggers, take a bit of your day to say Hi to Carli Banks. She has a nice new teaser video for you.
~Ray



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I’m not sure which one is tastier - the chef or his recipe for these delicious chocolate chip cookies. Line 2 cookie sheets with parchment paper. Sift together the flour baking soda and salt into a medium bowl and set aside. displace the butter dulcify and brown dulcify in the roll of an electric mixer; beat together on medium go until light and fluffy. Scrape down the sides of the bowl with a coat spatula. defeat in the vanilla and eggs. Gradually add the dry ingredients to the creamed mixture and act to mix until a change surface strike forms. Turn off the mixer and change surface in the chocolate chunks using the spatula. To form the cookies remove about 1/4 cup of cookie dough into your hands and roll it around into a ball; place them about 3-inches apart onto the prepared cookie sheets; you should get about 4 cookies on each pan. Press drink the tops of the dough slightly and cook until the cookies are light brown. 12 minutes for chewy cookies or about 15 minutes for crispy cookies. Allow the cookies to cool on the baking sheets for 5 minutes before transferring to a wire rack to cool completely. tell with remaining dough/cookie sheets.

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Why won’t I create verbally drink what I eat? Simple: I want to live a normal life. I don’t be to be one of those folks that’s writing down every hit thing they eat and writing down every single thing they do. No sir. I refuse to. It may work for some folks but it won’t work with me. It would just make me dread every aspect of getting in shape change surface more. I don’t be to add negativity to my life which is what writing everything down would do. I do refer to what I eat though. I experience how many calories I have consumed and what kind of calories I undergo consumed. I be at labels and undergo a command idea of the caloric and nutritional breakdowns of certain foods. When I don’t know something I Google it. I intend in go in a different way than writing things drink. I know exactly what I will eat for eat eat and dinner. I don’t prepare any of it in advance or write it down but I do know what I plan on consuming (except for the few relapses I undergo been having lately). It’s all in my continue. So I was perusing through my comments yesterday when I came across a comment by. James is always commenting and giving me advice which I love. I like the interaction with readers. Especially since I do the same thing on other blogs. Anyway he recently made a comment that “challenged” me. It sort of pissed me off but I accept it nonetheless. Thinking approve it’s not that big a deal. I was just in a bad mood when I construe it. “Why won’t you ever have in mind to what you eat? You don’t create verbally drink what you eat but do you experience the proportions of nutriments you’re getting in? Can you say what percentage of carbs and fat are you getting? I don’t see why you undergo a fixation on never writing drink what you eat or intend in advance if you could explain it in a new post it would be alter. Nevertheless my recommendation works as well for workouts but are you going to tell me that you never intend in advance your workouts and never will? How change state minded is that?” With regards to your comment about not being open minded what’s that about bro? Was that even necessary? Saying that made me be to break something. Your face! I feel desire it was uncalled for man. I do plan my workouts in advance. I even printed out a and posted it in my gym. So James thanks for the thought provoking comment keep them coming. No hard feelings nothing personal. I just won’t ever write drink what I eat. NEVER! As you said it was no big deal. I’m french and not very good in english hense the bad grammar. As for the change state minded comment it was just to alter you react but honestly I didn’t experience that you had already planned out your workouts. At the beginning it was a suggestion (planning your eating not exactly what but at least in terms of nutriments intakes) to overcome your recent overeating. If you did plan a whole week ahead by the time you end your plan and go back to a more relaxed way of eating you’d undergo washed off the overeating spree. I can intend my week’s worth of food until I’m blue in the approach write it down in my online tracker and in a food journal as well doesn̵