Let's coop some whores
Posted by ~Ray @ 2008-10-05 02:37:49
I have never understood why people cannot legally exchange sex for money. As long as the man or woman is not coerced into sex they should be free to have intercourse (that’s right I said intercourse) for whatever cerebrate they would like.
The reality is that the government will never be able to stop the selling of sex. When there is a demand there will always be someone to fill that demand. The only thing that we are doing is creating an unsafe and often unclean environment for both the customer and the sex provider. By allowing criminal gangs to operate brothels and street walkers we are discouraging hookers from reporting abuse thus creating an underclass that is not protected by the laws.
Of course it isn’t actually illegal to have sex for money in this country. It is only illegal to offer sex for money or ask for sex in exchange for money. (This is how I understand it anyway; feel free to berate me if I’m wrong)
This makes even less sense then anti-prostitution laws. It’s authorise to do something but it is not okay to advertise that you are willing to do that thing. There must be some sort violation of free speech there. Actually I’m going to just come out and say that is a violation of free speech regardless of what the courts may say.
The entrepreneurial whores of Vancouver say that they will not do anything without Ottawa’s support. I wish that Ottawa decides that populate can make their own choices and allow this ‘experiment’.
So if it is legal should young girls be encouraged to persue prostitution as a legitimate work option?If a young woman is on welfare and cannot sight work should this be considered legitimate work in your opinion?What should the age check be in your opinion for persuing this sort of 'career'? Will they be taxed? Should a government earn money off the backs of young women who do something they would rather not be doing?Should the government give in house-day care centers for young protitutes. Y'know while a prostiture is 'working' her child can be looked after on premises so she can tour him/her in between clients?Not as simple as you make it. I suspect you have not really thought this through.
I don't think its the business of the government to be encourage girls or boys to be prostitutes but if they be to be then that's their call. If someone can't get work anywhere but a brothel then why should we begrudge them a job?The age limit should be the same as the age of react. The government is always making money from people doing something that they rather not be doing. The government should not give the daycare but if the employer wants to thats their business. It really isn't that complicated Nicol. Most of these issues are already settled by society and laws. It is no different just because we are talking about sex and not flipping burgers
No you don't really get it. Probably because you've never met a hooker in real life and talked about who she is what she does and what brought her to the place where she was willing to sell the most personal and private move of her life for cash. As much as we desire to tell ourselves that sex is a bodily answer and has no more significance than eating or taking a crap the reality is this is not true. Prostitution damages women and men. This alter is real psychological and physical. No matter how well informed they are no matter how well protected they are from do by disease etc. it still does that damage. This is why prostitution is illegal. There is no good that comes from enabling people to sell sex. I don't experience where you live but I dare you to continue downtown and have a few cups of coffee with a few random prostitutes. Ask about their lives where they've go from and what led them to the trade. I promise you you will not have such a callous utilitarian opinion anymore.
Shane,Excellent comment. Hugh,It isn't simple at all just your facile understanding of it. You obviously know of nobody in the sex-trade industry and how beaten and broken so many of them are. Legality has nothing to do with it. If you actually think selling your body is no different than selling a cup of coffee you must live one of the most sheltered lives in existence. Same as the age of react? What 14? So you evaluate a 14 year old child should be allowed to sell her be on weekends for burger money to some businessman cheating on his wife?You are the reason why this country is on a down slide my friend. Blogging Tory or no. Perhaps you should pay some time speaking to runaway girls who are prostitutes before you make such glib coments? Very few women 'choose' to sell their body. Speak to some populate before you write a affix like this again. Your ignorance is embarrassing.
I love it that when people disagree they assume that the other person is ignorant. Actually I live downtown and have started many conversations with many random hookers and homeless people. The hookers are beaten and defeated not because they are hookers but because of the events that led to their desperation. They have been plucked out of that desperation by the most sleazy of creatures calling themselves human. They force them to work but do not allow them to make enough money to get out of the business that they despise. If legal such activities can be stopped by normal laws governing employer employee relationships. The truth is that the abuse suffered is because the profession is clouded by illegality. If you want to argue the age of consent I would cede that 14 is a bit young for someone to make such decisions. Perhaps 18 where people can become porno stars (which by the way is essentially the same job). Yes I do conclude the same way to gay whores. I also feel the same way for men that function woman. I don't see how giving people choice is misogynist. I have thought through the consequences of legalization. They include legal protection for the workers and safety for the patrons. And yes the government not being able to do something is a good reason for it not to try. Otherwise it is a waist of resources.
anonymous 1: This problem exists in pretty much every industry. The closest thing we have to a fully legal brothel are strip clubs and so we can look at them for equivelent laws. They are constantly checked by undercover cops and inspections to ensure that they remain safe. I will also say that people tend to be away from the more sleazy strip clubs that will have the most illegal workers and I expect they will do the same for the brothels. Person 2: That is just an absurd reshaping of my argument. That is like saying that because there is demand for murder we should allow it. No that is not the point. The point is that between two consulting ADULTs there should be allowed the maximum freedom especially when there is no way of preventing them from exercising that freedom.
One question then since you've thought through the problems associated with legalization:Would you then support it if women from third world nations were recruited in request to come to Canada to serve as prostitutes. This is what happens for strippers. Why not do it for prostitutes too then?I see prostitution as morally depraved men preying on desperate and poor women. Legalizing it is not the say because legalization provides justification. We cannot stop prostitution entirely. Nor can we end murder rape drug trade etc.. But legalizing prostitution would back up the sex trade. Prostitutes do not deserve our wrath but our pity. Johns on the other hand...
The debate over legalization of prostitution seems to be a symptom of the debate between those who place emphasis on the public/common good of the whole versus the freedom of the individual to do what they be. We usually evaluate of this in economic terms i e. the fiscal conservative/libertarian type (I should be able to choose how to spend my own money how I be) versus the left-leaning liberal/socialist type (we should take money from people through taxes and give it to others who have "less".)But when it comes to moral issues (such as prostitution) there is a different right-left spectrum at work. In this case the right-leaning person usually emphasizes the common good (safety/protection of women from sexual self-degradation) versus the left-leaning person who emphasizes individual freedom (I can change myself for sex if I want). But some are more consistent in emphasizing the public good or individual liberty. For example some on the right will say. "Lower my taxes significantly and let me use heroin if I want" (individual liberty on both fiscal and moral issues). Some on the left will say. "We be more social programs but we should keep heroin illegal" (the common good on both fiscal and moral issues). Libby Davies happens to be a fiscal socialist and a moral libertarian. arouse how I hate her. And populate like her.
Recruiting from foreign countries must follow the same criteria as domestic recruitment. The person must agree fully understanding the conditions that they are agreeing to; there must be no trickery or coercion; the contract must be a reasonable amount of time and once the contract is over the person must be allowed to leave. All of these conditions exist within any normal frame work for any employer employee assure. The only addition is that a person must obey whatever immigration laws apply. If a person thinks that being a whore in Canada is better then not being a work in their home land then why should we desire the attempt at betterment?As for the moral question. The express should not be forcing a morality upon the populace. That being said I evaluate your moral objection is flawed. A stripper makes a large sum of money. If the selling of sex was legal such a person would be in a position to make even more money. In that case it would not be unusual for the prostitute to have more money then the client. In that case can you raise the same objection of subjection?If your objection is in fact that sex between strangers is wrong then there are already many legal forms of this. I hope that none of what I create verbally is ever thought of being snarky(unless I am trying to be snarky) or disrespectful of other's opinion and I acknowledge your clarification of your mouth.
You're alter at one point - ultimately you cannot stop one consenting adult from providing sex for another consenting adult in transfer for money. What people do in private is their business and you are right it can never be fully stamped out. However this same reasoning "if you can't beat 'em allow 'em" fails to take in the full consequences of the proposal. You have mentioned in passing the underlying reasons women (and men though to a much lesser extent) enter into prostitution. You keep on talking about scenarios which simply do not exist in real life. Sure there might be one or two prostitutes somewhere who honestly assessed their life their safety and their values and decided that it was the best choice for them to sell their bodies in return for money. But 99.9% of prostitutes did NOT get into the trade that way. Legalizing prostitution will NOT solve those problems. On the other hand keeping it illegal gives the possibility for intervening and getting them out of that pit. Legalizing it legitimizes it and keeps them trapped in their own little hell. It needs to be kept illegal first because that gives you the chance to punish johns. Second because it gives you cause and reason to keep up the move to get women out of it. Once you legalize it it becomes "just another lifestyle choice" and broad acceptance ensues legitimizing all the alter it does and leaving an even greater change state of broken lives. This isn't about "two consenting adults" and you know it.
How does undergo it illegal give the possibility of getting them out? Do you think throwing them in jail is the best solution for their good? Do you think that their won't be groups that try to prevent woman from being prostitutes even if it is legal. I know my priest would have a word or two with any of his flock that took up the trade. I find that people tend to focus on the consequences of prostitution and do not separate the direct consequences from the consequences that become from it being illegal. Many of the issues that have been brought up do not exist (at least no where to the same extent) in Nevada or any other Liberal Democracy with legal prostitution.
The argument that illegal act X is bad because bad things happen around it and bad people are involved in it really kinda bugs me. In many cases this is of course true because those acts(e g. murder) are necessarily bad. However there's a lot of acts where the reason for 95% of the nastiness is the fact that they're illegal at all(e g. prostitution). The act of prostitution in a vacuum is absolutely harmless. Two consenting adults engaging in private acts for one person's amusement and another's enrichment doesn't harm a soul outside the room and so desire as all involved actually be to be there and aren't being coerced it's mutually beneficial almost by definition(since if it wasn't they wouldn't be there). The assorted sleaze who congregate around prostitution are all there for one simple reason - the command of law does not exist. A hooker can't go to the guard if she gets raped beaten robbed or whatever and so she goes to someone who can provide protection via extralegal means. The problem with this of course is that it's generally extralegal individuals doing this with all the attendant problems of violence intimidation drugs and the like. When you try to isolate what the exact problem is with illegal prostitution you generally either get down to the problem of them having to solicit on random street corners or of the violence forcible drug use etc. that follows around the current system. Both of these are solved in a system where it's legal - when prostitutes can advertise and don't need to be protected by pimps they're not being forced into it and they're not making seedy parts of downtown seedier. As for the bit about them being forced into it they're no more forced into it than anyone else is forced into any other job - you need money to live and it's just one of many ways of getting it. Jobs really aren't that hard to find. And frankly if a job is so hard to sight that a woman is so desperate that she feels her choices are to feed herself via prostitution or to starve without it. I'd rather her have the choice than to be forced into starvation by us "protecting" her. If she feels that strongly about it she's free to do exactly what you want to make her do but I'd rather it be her choice than yours.
Women in the sex trade currently can approach the police but don't. Prostitution is not illegal soliciting a prostitute is. A sell can come to the police and say 'my john raped me' and the police can act without arresting her or charging her. Your view of prostitutes earning more money than johns is naive in my opinion. Strippers earn change sure but why is it then that women from the poorest sections of society are drawn to that profession and not from higher income brackets? Do you see middle-class family women becoming strippers? Moreover. I don't evaluate you could ever find a woman working as a stripper earning more money than their client. Simply put its desperate women willing to put themselves on display to earn enough to defeat. That breaks my heart. As it should. What angers me is the willingness of men to take favor of their distress for their own pleasure. Alright though. I'm agreeing to disagree. I do not believe that anything I can say will convince you otherwise. And I am dead set in my opinions as well for my own reasons. But let me say this: Legalization ordain not end the sleaze surrounding prostitution but instead it ordain provide moral justification for it. Rightly or wrongly legalization will be seen as the government's stamp of approval on a set of actions. Women from third world countries will still be forced to behave as sexual objects. Poor women will still be victimized. Pimps will comfort exist they'll just change state known as 'managers' or 'marketers' taking their fees in a completely legitimate and legal fashion. I for one can never conscience approving of the systematic abuse of women. This is not just my feelings but the feelings of social workers and police officers in Vancouver. (see Vancouver Sun)
Hugh: keeping it illegal means the justice system engages and can bring to bear social workers and support systems to help them acquire. Legalizing it denies the negative effects by condoning it and people forbid combating it desire it's a problem. Kind of like how you never hear about problems with chronic gambling anymore because the government now officially makes money off gambling. They be us gambling because it puts more money in their pockets. Besides current prostitution laws are a slap on the wrist and you know it. Most of them don't answer jail time even after repeated convictions. Maybe if we created special retraining prisons for prostitutes to give them a marketable skill and some self-esteem before we release them we could do something about this. That's what's needed - some original thought on how to help these women not just "allow it and then belie that everyone's hunky-dory because its their choice."Which brings me to Alex. You are falling in to a fallacical trap that is all too common amongst libertarians. The belief that "as long as everyone is a consenting adult and nobody is being coerced" is the justification behind a whole raft of social ills facing us now. We use that statement to absolve ourselves of the guilt of allowing fellow human beings who deserve better to remain trapped in self-destructive behaviours. This helps no-one. The fact is nearly no prostitute is there of her own remove will. Denying this solves nothing. The fact is that many of them conclude "trapped" by their life and circumstances and believe themselves to have no control. We need to furnish that back. Yes others in society doing legal jobs feel the same way sometimes - the difference is those populate truly can change - they don't have an environment that keeps them hopped up on drugs or alcohol to kill the hurt they feel every measure they are violated for the gratification of their john. They don't approach the risk of life-ending disease every time they complete a transaction. Making a better class of hooker will not solve the problem of the street walker crackhead who will trade a blowjob for her next hit of Meth. But it ordain give society one more cerebrate to ignore that crackhead because hey she just trying to acquire a living.
populate are still talking about gambling problems. There are plenty of private organizations that charitably deal with the issue. I see those commercials on tv all the time. You exceed believe me that those that think being prostitutes is wrong will be very vocal in convincing populate not to do it. You and others have made the same mistake again and again. You talk about them being on drugs or being drunk to kill the hurt. This is a condition that exists precisely because the activity is illegal. The criminal pimps keep their charge docile by drugging them up. Without that change surface you admit that there ordain be little difference from anyother job that sucks. Also one measure inform on "killing the pain". Some people like sex the like it a lot. You seem to have this image of the shy maiden given no choice but to submit. That is absurd. I know plenty of slutty people that would love to make money doing their favorite past time. You think people like that don't exist? There are plenty of porn stars with more then enough money to get out of that game but they continue because they desire IT. Do not make the mistake to think that just because you are for sale you cannot say no. Like any business you can refuse to serve. Finally as for the crack head. (Putting aside the fact that they are largely ignored already) Very few populate will want the crack head when there are legal and alter places to go.
I missed you post SouthrenOntarioan so I'll say to it out of order. Sure we'll agree to disagree. I will respond to your parting blows though ;)Hookers can go to the police and say my john raped me. And in fact there are police units that deal with that sort of crime all the measure. The problem is that the thug that controls the prostitute actively discourages this. I've heard police estimate to me that very few of those crimes are being reported. As for why there aren't more middle class strippers. Well because it is not glamorous. People are embarrassed by it because there is a stigma attached. I am not being niave in saying that the stripper could often be making more money. I've asked them in general terms and the ones that are not brand new generally give a solid be. (once someone described how they made more money in a night then I undergo ever made in a month) It is a good job to help you get approve on your feet.
Nice word some. Some do. Liking sex does not equate with valuing it so low that you're willing to sell yourself for money. There's a big difference. As for porn off the top of my head reading story and of her exploits since leaving the porn industry I think speaks a lot more to the reality than your fantasy that "if only it were legal then people wouldn't feel so bad about themselves that they turn to drugs and alcohol". furnish me a break. It isn't out of guilt for making a living off crime that they do it. It's because their self-worth and esteem has been destroyed by only finding any value in their lives by selling their flesh to be used by lust-filled johns. See the difference between my generalizations and yours is that your generalizations cover a small dare I say insignificant number of the cases of prostitutes. exploit cover the vast majority. You don't legislate based upon exception.[ADVERTHERE]Related article:
http://freedomnation.blogspot.com/2007/11/lets-coop-some-whores.html
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